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When Ashley, her husband and kids moved from New York to Los Angeles, she thought she was just leaving work temporarily and she would return to it in no time. As it turned out, she ended up loving homeschooling her kids full time; and with the current pandemic, that is not going to change anytime soon.
What we realized from speaking with Ashley is how homeschooling and choosing careers share so much in common. Instead of giving her children spoon-fed information, she lets them explore and learn to find the answers on their own. Having a self-directed curriculum allows them to think independently and this is not at all different from the mindset necessary for a successful career - which has evolved from linear paths in the past, to the dynamic “work in progress” of today.
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We have more interviews on our podcast! Head over there to check out more interesting stories.
Music was used with permission. Credit:
Happy by MBB https://soundcloud.com/mbbofficial
Creative Commons — Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported — CC BY-SA 3.0
Free Download / Stream: https://bit.ly/Happy-MBB
Music promoted by Audio Library https://youtu.be/g6swHZbWtRc
Resources
✍︎✍︎✍︎
When Ashley, her husband and kids moved from New York to Los Angeles, she thought she was just leaving work temporarily and she would return to it in no time. As it turned out, she ended up loving homeschooling her kids full time; and with the current pandemic, that is not going to change anytime soon.
What we realized from speaking with Ashley is how homeschooling and choosing careers share so much in common. Instead of giving her children spoon-fed information, she lets them explore and learn to find the answers on their own. Having a self-directed curriculum allows them to think independently and this is not at all different from the mindset necessary for a successful career - which has evolved from linear paths in the past, to the dynamic “work in progress” of today.
✍︎✍︎✍︎
We have more interviews on our podcast! Head over there to check out more interesting stories.
Music was used with permission. Credit:
Happy by MBB https://soundcloud.com/mbbofficial
Creative Commons — Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported — CC BY-SA 3.0
Free Download / Stream: https://bit.ly/Happy-MBB
Music promoted by Audio Library https://youtu.be/g6swHZbWtRc
And that's what I don't want for my kids is I don't want them to feel like they have to pick what they want to be when they grow up. I want them to feel like they've been preparing for their career, their whole childhood they've been pursuing and asking and exploring all the different careers and all the different passions they have. I feel like why can't children have multiple passions, if they love video games, and they want to teach classes about video games, there's plenty of people making millions of dollars doing that, or and same thing for art and so on.
Dana :Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening, wherever you are. Welcome back to the work in progress podcast. today. I'm really excited to be talking to Ashley. Ashley was a physician assistant and she transitioned to become a homeschool mom. And I know mothers are. It's like, the hardest job in the world in my opinion. So I have a lot of respect for moms, especially now during the whole pandemic. So I'm really, really excited to be talking to Ashley today. And before we dive into the questions, Ashley, it's an honor to have you here and I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about yourself, and then we'll take it from there.
Ashley :So as Dana said, I am a homeschool mom. But I used to be a physician assistant. And so I was living in New York. And I was living the dream, I guess, working in the healthcare field, and I was making great money. And I had worked really hard to get to that point. And then my husband was offered a job promotion out here in Los Angeles. So I had to suddenly make a decision about whether or not I would continue working. So we took the opportunity and moved across the country from New York to Los Angeles last year in 2019. And I'm really happy with our change in life, but I had to make a lot of changes, and I had to make a lot of decisions about working in the healthcare field. So it's been an interesting journey. And I've I'm excited to talk about it. And I'm excited to encourage other parents out there as a homeschool mom now. It's just been a juggling of a bunch of responsibilities and ideas in my mind.
Dana :Yeah, that's absolutely, I think moving across you, like you said, from New York to California. It's a huge change, change of location change of timezone, and now you're Have you have a new set of responsibility. That must have been, what was this experience? like for you? Was it difficult? Or was it kind of? Like, how did you how did you find that experience to be?
Ashley :I mean, it was hard because I had always lived in New York my whole life. So I hadn't really traveled a lot. I mean, I had went on vacations, but I never had lived anywhere else. So I was really skeptical about whether or not I could even survive and where else if that sounds so ridiculous, but you know, you just get used to your surroundings you get used to the same places and the same people that it becomes strange to even think that life goes on and other places and if you could even fit in there and you know if you'll ever feel like it's home again. So it's been strange but it's been amazing to to realize that there is a tremendous amount of life and opportunity to expose myself and my kids to so moving to California has been hard in the beginning because all my family and friends are still in New York. But I have to say that being in the homeschool community really helped a lot because meeting other homeschool parents and children is what has made me feel at home now in California only a year later. So it's it's been fun overall, but definitely, it's hard. And I can really relate to any parents that have moved, you know, like military families. I can see how isolating it can feel at first when you're, you know, completely leaving everything behind that you knew and that you loved.
Dana :Did you know anybody when you first moved here, did you have any friends or relatives? Yeah, I had a few.
Ashley :Like, there was two cousins and an aunt but they both lived kind of up by where you are up in Northern California. So it wasn't like I could visit with them regularly. And, you know, it's kind of like not the same comfort I had in New York where all of our family was like within 510 minutes from our house.
Dana :And tell us a bit about what you did before when you were a physician assistant. What was what was it like?
Ashley :Oh yeah, so physician assistant was like my dream job I had always wanted to go into the medical field. And so when I found out about the career of physician assistant, I was just amazed at how much they do that is exactly what the physician does. And a lot of people get confused about what a physician assistant is, because it sounds like you're an assistant to the physician, which isn't what you are, it's actually you're assisting the physician by seeing the patients and diagnosing them and treating them in his place or her place. So it's not like a medical assistant or like a nurse, it's more so like you're actually writing prescriptions and diagnosing and treating so that more patients get seen and treated in a day than if a doctor had to do it all on their own. So you're decreasing wait times, and you're kind of improving the patient experience. So I was so excited to be a part of that and I knew how much I hated waiting in the doctor's office. So I was so excited to be a part of that. And you know, I was making six figure salary I had worked through my PA school education. It was a two Your accelerated like medical degree program and so I was pregnant during that time with my second child and it was just a really difficult time but it ended up being really worth it. And when I finished I was really happy. I had my two kids and I was already homeschooling them at that point, they were four and six years old, I think, or maybe a little bit younger, maybe five and three years old at that point. And so I was homeschooling them already. I was working 312 hour shifts Friday, Saturdays and Sundays overnights. And then I was homeschooling them during the week, and I thought I had it all you know, it was perfect. I was living my dream life with my kids, getting to spend all my time with them and really educate them and enjoy them. And then on the weekends, I was working my dream job and making really good money doing it. So you know, for a while I was actually the breadwinner in my family and I was making more money at my husband was at that point. So I thought I had it all and then and then things changed. How long were you a physician assistant so I graduated in 2015. And then my husband got this job promotion last year. So I was working for about four years.
Dana :And so your physician assistant for four years and what was that decision? like for you to decide? I mean, I guess it makes sense when your husband is you know, needs to move from New York to LA, then you follow with your your two kids apart. Makes sense. But how was it like deciding or coming to the decision that you're going to, I guess not pursue a medical profession in California, at least for now. I don't know your future, but to kind of just change from that into just staying at home and just, you know, have that become your full time job?
Ashley :Yeah, yeah. I mean, at first, I felt like, you know, I'm going to probably end up working in in California. I didn't think I was really leaving the work force. I just thought I'm just changing location. So I knew that I I was licensed, I was certified to work in all 50 states. So I just thought, you know, I'll apply to work in California. And then I realized that I was actually really enjoying being at home with my kids. You know, in the time that I was here, moving here and adjusting, I decided to sacrifice my need to use my degree to just be at home with my kids and help them adjust to the change of moving. And then in that period of adjustment with them, I realized that I was really enjoying not not rushing around and not being exhausted all the time and not missing out on, on them on on their experiences. And I realized that for my marriage to that I had no time left over to be with my husband. We were working opposite shifts, you know, he was working Monday to Friday, and then I was working weekends. So we really never saw each other and my kids really never experienced their parents together. We were just always working. So I was really enjoying the family dynamic. And I realized that it just wasn't the right time for me to go back to work. So it was a hard bullet to bite. I have to say Because I had worked so hard to get to that point, and I never saw myself as a stay at home mom. But I realized that this time that it was kind of what it was needed of me was what was more important for me to do. And it has been a sacrifice, but I do see myself returning to the workforce at some point. But just you know, then I got pregnant with twins from now, so now is not the right time either.
Dana :So we'll double the amount of work and double the joy.
Ashley :It has been Yeah, my twins are going to be two this August. So things are starting to get a lot easier than they were but you know, it's just goes to show you that you really don't know what's going to come your way and what you're going to need to adjust to you have to always be ready and willing to adjust to change.
Dana :So you have three kids.
Ashley :I have well I have four so I have my smaller Yeah, my older two and then now I have twins. So yeah, four. Wow.
Dana :That's so that's so funny because um, Angela and I are twins. Oh, yes. Sorry. I never know never mentioned that but usually I just say, oh, we're sisters but but but but we're twins and every time we meet people new and like we whenever we meet new people, they're always they always tell us that first they're usually very shocked that we're even sisters at all. And then when they when we say that Oh, it's actually twins and they after they get over the shock, they say that oh, I can kind of see the resemblance but
Ashley :Oh, so then are you identical twins or are you fraternal?
Dana :Fraternal.
Ashley :Okay. That's so fascinating. I just I'm so fascinated by twins. I can't believe I ended up having twins. But I get a million questions about twins and how they are if they're similar, if they have the same personalities, if they have the same likes and dislikes and they're just told even though they are identical twins, mine are, they are just completely different human beings. Like it's fascinating because genetically they're supposed to be completely the same and they're very different.
Angela :I guess I'm really curious to learn more about when you kind of made the decision then to say Start homeschooling your own kids and instead of working, because I can only imagine how difficult it was complete your program to get to, you know, the point where you're able to work for 50 states while being pregnant, and it's just such a huge accomplishment. And then you were able to do that for four or five years. And you were, you know, sorry about that, obviously very successful at it. But the moment when you have to make the decision to not do that anymore, that your friends or family or colleagues, you know, were they concerned, were they worried?
Ashley :Yeah, my parents especially were very concerned because they knew that I had worked so hard and I don't think stay at home moms are even considered respectable. I think a lot of people respect people for having careers that are high paying and are really well respected titles and that sort of thing. So to be a stay at home mom kind of feels like you're taking the backseat or you're, you know, giving up or you're walking away and feeling Like, the community of your support system sort of just looks down on you a little bit. So I definitely faced that disappointment feeling or that disappointment or I don't think anyone ever said they were disappointed in me. But I just could sense you know, like people would say things like, are you going to go back to work? You're gonna go back to work right? You know, did you find work yet? Are you working it? And people even my friends, you know, that had looked up to me when I was in physician assistant, they would always ask me how I got into PA school. What are these kinds of questions you get asked during your interview? What is it like to be a PA like people who really looked up to me? Now we're like, are you going to be working again? Like when are you going to go back to work and people just couldn't understand how I could have walked away from something that no one was really successful and to was just something that I really always enjoyed. I always was excited to do so they were just scared. I guess for me, I think they were all coming from a place of concern that I was permanently giving up my career. And they couldn't see that. I was just saying Making a temporary sacrifice. And for me, I'm still even processing that myself that this is a temporary sacrifice. This isn't a permanent surrender of my career. It's just something I'm doing temporarily. And, you know, homeschooling has been something that I was doing while I was working. And it was working. It was it was happening. My kids were thriving, and they were learning and they were growing. So it was doable to work and to homeschool at the same time. But now, it's very different the way I homeschool. It's just a much more relaxed and peaceful experience. And again, like I said before, the family dynamic has changed tremendously because now I'm home on the weekends and I'm not exhausted. So the transition from then to where I am now is definitely been a huge one for me to be like peaceful and happy that I'm doing this and not feel disappointed in myself that I walked away from all the hard work. I did, you know?
Angela :Yeah, that's totally understandable and I think you know, one way to look at a career is that, you know, you don't necessarily have to do that one thing that, you know, may be your dream job, like all of the time, it could be something that you know, you devote a portion of your life towards, and then maybe step away a little bit because you have other obligations and responsibilities that at the time, are, you know, your highest priority, and then later on, you can return back to it. I think that's totally a very normal way of looking at, you know, your career.
Ashley :Yeah, I so agree that careers do not need to be all or nothing, you can totally do things on a more flexible schedule, if you just think a little bit more creatively. And I'm just now starting to realize that all of the experience and knowledge that I acquired as a PA is still very relevant and usable, even if I'm not working in a hospital. So actually, what I'm doing is I'm teaching workshops to middle school kids, we've been meeting on zoom, and I've been teaching them all about the brain and the anatomy of the brain and we're going to do a dissection of the brain together. And I'm realizing that have the knowledge and experience I have is still really helpful to tie in with my current passion of educating youth. I realize I'm not even just passionate about homeschooling my own kids, but I'm also passionate about helping to homeschool other people's kids. So if you or any of your listeners are curious to learn more about passion lead workshops or about anatomy workshops that I'm teaching, I'd love to be connected, I'll send you all my contact information. But basically, my point is that whatever it is that your career was in the past that you have to walk away from, there's no reason to say goodbye. I feel like you can still use a lot of the knowledge that you've acquired to help fuel you into your next part of your journey. So for me, it's been tying in all of my medical knowledge and experience into homeschooling. You know, not even just with my own kids, but also starting to build a little bit of business within the homeschooling network. I feel like that's such an important step for me. is learning that you can totally think differently about your experience and your knowledge and your careers.
Angela :I'm really curious about homeschooling and you know, like, you know, for, I guess growing up, like really didn't really have any friends that were homeschooled, but it's definitely something that I'm starting to see more and more people do. Tell us a little bit more about the decision to them. homeschool your kids?
Ashley :Yeah, well, I mean, going back a little bit to what you were just saying actually, because it ties in a little bit is the whole concept of being able to do some of what you used to do, even if it's only a little bit and it's not full time. I've definitely tried to weave that into my homeschooling experience. So you know, I worked in surgery as a physician assistant, so I was the first to assist in surgical procedures. Sometimes if people had a laceration, I'd be the one to sew it up or there was any politics of wound care that I was responsible for and just a bunch of hospital type of related procedures that would happen that I was participating in and That was my day. So I've been trying to weave in a lot of what I used to do for work into my homeschool. And so with this whole Coronavirus, my son has become really interested in the immune system. And I feel, you know, grateful that he is because it's an area that I'm equipped to teach him in, because it's something I deeply understand and I'm deeply interested in. So it's been really beautiful for me to get to share something that I love with my kids at a time when they're really interested in it. And then to know that if he was in school, the teacher would say, You're too young to understand this and he wouldn't have had the chance to learn it because he's only in third grade. So I've been happy that I'm homeschooling him because now I can go into that with him more. And so to answer your question about what made me want to homeschool is basically that I realized that school districts are sort of factories for children and I have nothing negative to say about the home about the school system in general. I know it serves a great purpose for most kids, but For other kids who are sort of out of the box thinkers and want to learn about things that the school system doesn't offer, it's sort of can't meet them there. You know, it can't meet all the needs of all the children. And I feel like my kids in particular, were kids that had interests that weren't traditional, like they wanted to do cake decorating, and she wanted to do like, this is my seven year old now. She wanted to do arts and crafts all the time, she wanted to design her own t shirts and design her own stuffed animal apparel, like she designs her own outfits for her stuffed animals. And so they just don't have the brainpower left over after the date school days over to them, pursue their interests and pursue their ideas, they have homework to do. They have, you know, sports practices to go to, and I just feel like the traditional school system would fail my kids in the goals I have for them, you know. And so we started homeschooling basically because we wanted something more for our kids. And, you know, a bunch of other reasons too, for our faith. You know, we're crazy. And the school system kind of frowns upon the word God. So we didn't like that. And, you know, and then for the social reasons, too, we feel like they were not being properly socialized in the school system. The school system was sort of encouraging bullying, encouraging racial separation and kids, they are teaching history from one point of view, just a number of things where I feel like my kids weren't getting the best education. And even when we tried private school, like a private Christian school, we still saw a lot of the same issues with inappropriate behavior and just things coming up that weren't appropriate for kids to see and talk about yet. And we just felt like it wasn't the right thing for our family. And, you know, I can't say homeschooling is the best thing for everyone to do. But I do think it's something worth experiencing. At least once in your life, you know, even if you only did it for six months, it's really my favorite thing about life right now is homeschooling. I'm sure you definitely get to spend a lot more time kind of you know, see Your kids learn and then being there for them to explain things to them. And I definitely feel that there's probably like, multitude of benefits that will, you know, impact maybe their attitude towards learning certain things as well. Because then it's not a stranger telling them things and it's, you know, somebody they know and trust. Right? Yeah. And there's no, like pressure of you must get this right, you must know this. Because if you don't, you're gonna fail the test. You know, it's like, if you didn't understand that, or you didn't get that we're going to try a different way. And the things that you are really strong in and things you do really love, we're going to find ways to learn about those things. So if you're obsessed with animals, and all you want to do is watch cartoons about animals, we're going to try to find out where do these animals live? What kind of diseases do they transmit? How long are they How much do they weigh and we're going to pull in all the subjects that you need to know for school, but we're going to make it more fun for you and we're going to make it matter to you because what is two plus two really mean to a kid when it has no meaning but if you say like But if this Jaguar weighs two pounds, and then he just ate a two pound carcass, how much does he weigh? Now it's like that means more to him, then two plus two on a paper, you know. And I think teachers don't have the time. I mean, it's impossible to do that for 30 kids, they just can't make things fun for every child all the time.
Dana :That's so fascinating. I feel like if you're somebody who homeschools your kids, you're kind of like, you're like the school system. And like the board, the teacher all combined together into one. And yeah, just teaching but you also need to design, I guess, the curriculum, and then you kind of need to, I don't know how you plan it. But I feel like if I were to homeschool my kids, I would probably need to think maybe a little further ahead. Maybe I need to think about what they need to learn right now and then what they need to learn in the future and how to get there. So I feel like there's a lot of things to think about. So for you as a mom who homeschools your Kids, how do you plan ahead, or you just kind of take it day by day, week by week?
Ashley :Uh, well, now, I think I do just take it day by day, and week by week. But in the beginning, I was a lot more scared to do that I felt like I needed a plan. So in my first year, I would look at these books, that's called, like, everything your first grader needs to know. And they have one for each grade. And they kind of go through all of the topics that they would learn in school. And so I would look at those from the library. And I would say, okay, they need to learn about plants, they need to learn about bugs, they need to learn about Greek mythology, like whatever it was that they were going to learn in school within that book already. And it wasn't lessons or anything, but it was just like an outline of, I guess what the teachers would be using to design their lesson plans. So I would use that and I would just say like, Okay, I know we have to learn about these things. So each month we're going to hit, we're going to create goals that we want to hit, and we're going to check them off and if we don't get to them, then I'm just going to carry them over to the next month and we'll hit those goals. On the next month, so I would have like September be plant studies. And this whole month we're going to learn about plants, seeds or learn about measuring plants, how tall they grow. What are some diseases plants carry? And how can plants be used as medicine? And what are the history of plants. So we're going to do plant experiments. And we're just going to use plants and touch on all of our subjects. All four of the main ones, we're going to do art about plants. And that was like, my focus in the beginning was to use whatever the school was saying, I had to learn and find a way to make it fun. And so we did that for our first year. And I would ask my kids like, what are you curious about? I always would ask them that, like, what are you curious about? And, you know, kids have never had a shortage of answering that kids are just always curious. They want to learn you can't stop them from learning. They want to learn it's just a matter of not killing their curiosity and making them feel like if you don't want to know this, if you don't want to know what's on the menu, then you can't eat. So I was trying to instead Flip that on its head and offer them like a buffet and tell them like you don't have to eat everything here at the buffet, but I want you to try what is the most appealing to you, and then what's not appealing to you, we're going to leave it at the buffet and come back to it next month. And so it was an opening of my eyes and an opening of their eyes to realizing that there's so much in the world that you can learn and we want to make it fun for you. And I want to learn with you. That was huge, too for my kids to realize that mom doesn't know everything she doesn't know. And when she doesn't know, what does my mom do when she doesn't know the answer to my question? Does she say, I don't know. Or does she say I don't know. But let's look it up together. And that was a big humbling piece for me was to realize like my kids need to know that adults don't know everything and there are ways to learn things you don't know. And that was my goal with them was to make sure that they knew how to learn so that when I'm not around or I'm busy with my twins or I go back to work, my kids can homeschool themselves because they know how to find information they know how to learn. And I feel like that's what has been lacking for a lot of kids who go to school. I mean, I went to public school. And I feel like we just were spoon fed information so that we could pass a test. We weren't really learning for real life. We were just learning out of anxiety and memorizing Pythagorean theorems. And I'm like, what about the things I needed to know like, taxes and getting a mortgage and all the things that actually matter for your real life? I feel like those are the things that we're lacking. And those are the things that when your kids ask you questions about it's meaningful to count that as school it's meaningful to actually teach them those things and not say they're too young. You know,
Dana :There are many moments when, after I became an adult and I had to deal with let's say, personal finance or maybe health or something like that, like the issues or the topics are actually relevant to very important and relevant to, you know, your day to day life. And as I realized that actually never really learned that in school. And I think let's say if you're a, if you're a finance major in college, then you probably know all about it. But for let's say, if you're a bio major, I, myself am and my sister too, and a lot of people are and I feel like they probably never got like a formal education on that, or even if they did, it's probably on some theory. It's sometimes it's not, it may not always be the most practical information that you need to, you know, Help Help yourself, have a good financial future. So, I think do i do think that it's very fascinating that you let your you let your kids kind of choose what they learn and also you think about whether the things that they're going to learn is going to be actually meaningful and relevant to them when they grow up or even now?
Ashley :Yeah, I try. I try not to ask my kids like the question of what do you want to be when you grow up? You know, because I feel like you guys, you guys probably see this a lot where you've interviewed a bunch of people who have changed careers. And I wonder, too, I wonder if you guys have experienced this on your show where people actually tell you that they always wanted to do their second career, but it just wasn't respected or it wasn't. They didn't know how to do it or they weren't prepared or they felt pressured to choose their first career. And that's what I don't want for my kids is I don't want them to feel like they have to pick what they want to be when they grow up. I want them to feel like they've been preparing for their career, their whole childhood they've been pursuing and asking and exploring all the different careers and all the different passions they have. I feel like kids and people in general, they all have passions. So why why mute our kids and say, okay, no, your art is not respectable. You can't pursue art as a career or No, your music is not respectable. We can't respect that as a career or your video games. That can't be a career. I mean, why can't children how have multiple passions, if they love video games, and they want to teach classes about video games, there's plenty of people making millions of dollars doing that. Or, and same thing for art and so on. So, you know, I wonder that for you guys, if you guys have people on your show that actually do say that they wanted to do their second career, but they just didn't feel like their education, prepare them for it, or they didn't have a supportive environment or so on and so forth.
Dana :Yeah, actually, so many, um, I think it can come from both inner or outer expectations. We all know what the society thinks, you know, what's a respectable career, what's not a respectable career. And I think another part another layer, is that a lot of times people, they just think to themselves that Oh, whatever it is that I want to do, it's not probably not going to make me much money, or it's going to be hard to survive on this or is probably not like a very glamorous career. So a lot of times, people let other people or even themselves stop themselves from pursuing what it is that they actually want to do. It's very interesting that you brought up the topic that how education and the way you grew up. I mean, they feed directly into your career. Basically, it really does start from a very young age, you know, we don't just choose our, our jobs, our career after you graduate from college, you kind of choose it before you, you finish with your degree, right. And sometimes even earlier in high school or middle school. I know some countries in Asia for example, some kids are encouraged to pick like a, like a medical track in their high school, or even middle school at the age of 1314. They already they already know that this is what they're going to do when they quote unquote, grow up. But growing up has so much more. It's so much more than just being 2325 choosing your career. It's much like your career throughout the lifespan. It's much longer than that.
Ashley :Yeah. And I do think that like what you were saying was children being encouraged to go into the medical field because it's respected. It's such a common practice for parents to do that to their children. And you know, I can't lie, I was definitely tempted to do that, as a healthcare provider myself, I knew how lucrative it was, I didn't have to work as hard as most people did. I only work three days a week, and I was earning six figures. So I definitely, like experienced the success and the respect that comes with working in the medical field. And I wanted that so badly for my kids to not have to work so hard to make a little bit of money. But then I thought about all the doctors that I worked with, and the nurses that I worked with, that were truly so unhappy to be at work, they didn't want to be there. They were only there for the money and it showed in their work. It showed in the way they treated people. It showed in the way that they treated patients and that's why you hear that so many doctors have such a bad bedside manner. And that's because a lot of doctors sit and go into it for the money they went into it because their parents made them do it. And so the more I experienced that, in my own health care experience was I just was like, No, I don't want to raise my next generation of humans to be that way. I want them to pick a job that they truly feel, helps them to use their passion, their unique gifts, their unique ideas, I want them to truly be able to use those things to, to make a difference and to be a productive member of society. I don't want them to live my vision for them. I want them to live their vision for them. And I want them to also feel comfortable, like having more than one passion. Like you don't have to pick one. If you want to be an artist, then that doesn't mean that's it. You can be an artist who also makes music, who also is a doctor who also is you know what I mean? Like, you don't have to choose anything. You can have multiple interests. And I think that's something that I really struggled with was I felt like okay, I'm a physician assistant. So that's it. I didn't think I was allowed to have another job or another interest. I don't know why. I I don't even know why I thought that but I just in school, you're asked do you want to be what do you want to be when you grow up? Do you want to be a teacher, a lawyer, a doctor? And it's feels like you have to fit in this box. Otherwise, what are you going to do? You know?
Angela :Now, that's a very good point. I think there's definitely, you know, a lot of benefits to like kind of creating that environment where you're encouraging different kinds of explorations and interests. And also I think, a lot of times I just remember growing up, I myself was, so I always felt like, Oh, you know, I am just like really NACA with numbers. So anything that's like McAfee, or computer ish, I kind of grew up thinking that I just won't do well. And, you know, I think, you know, it's very easy sometimes I think for kids to be given right, like be in an environment where certain comments and whatnot are made and to kind of give them that impression that they just may not do well. And I think sometimes it can then become like a self fulfilling prophecy where you know, you're like a little mountains, you're not trying because you are scared and you're just you tell yourself that you're not gonna do well. You don't even want to try and
Ashley :Right, or you remember like I failed my math test or I always don't do well with spelling. So I can never be a writer or, you know, it's just like when you see those test scores, and as a kid year after year, subject after subject, it has to impact you. I know for me, it affected me like anytime I didn't score well on a subject or I felt like I was struggling with it. And I didn't score well on my test. It makes you feel like okay, this subject is not for me, and I could never pursue anything where my guidance counselor is going to tell me you need to be really good in math, then don't even consider it because I failed my math test every year or whatever it is like, it doesn't have to be that way things that your weekend, you can actually become stronger and if you recognize them as weaknesses and you try to overcome them in different ways.
Angela :Yeah, totally, I think those are things that I think people can grow to like realize, and then kind of then build in that mental self talk, even, you know, telling yourself that even though I may not be doing so right, right now I can improve and I can learn. But I think early on, it's harder for younger kids to have that kind of mentality and like structure set up for themselves. So, yeah, I think having that homeschooling environment where you're helping them create that environment is very important. I'm really curious though, since you have four kids, and they all sound like they're in slightly different age range. What is your typical day? Like? It must be insane. Like, are you there, even though two hours a day? There is no typical day?
Ashley :Yeah, now I have a I have a nine year old and a seven year old. They both just had birthdays. They're both going into fourth grade and going into second grade. And then my twins Yeah, they're going to be two in August. So I have nine seven and then my almost two year old twins. And so recently, I started trying to make changes the way our day goes. Because our days used to start very chaotic Lee with a bunch of chores that needed to be done. I don't know how you guys feel about chores, but I feel like chores are so important for children to do to not that they have to take care of the house for me, but I feel like they do need to learn how to participate in the house running. And so I definitely would give my kids chores. But what was happening was, the day was starting off with chores. And the day was just very chaotic. And it was with me yelling and feeling stressed and rushing them to get their chores done so that we could get to whatever our homeschool goals were for the day. And I realized I don't want us to start our day that way. Because then when we do sit down to learn together, it feels so uptight. The atmosphere doesn't feel like you want to be there. everyone just wants to get out of the house and go for a walk. So for a while. That's what we were doing was like chores, get stressed out, go for a walk baby nap time, get ready for lunch. And I wasn't I mean, my kids were thriving in terms of like academically learning and they do take stand is testing for their charter school. So they were always doing well and scoring really high on their tests. But I still felt like I wasn't liking the emotional relationship that was developing between us it was a lot of yelling and a lot of stress. So recently, we actually started changing the way our typical day starts. And we've been starting our days with poetry and tea time. And so we actually all have a cup of tea together, we light some candles, and we either read from the Bible or we read a poem, or I just read to them even though they can actually read alone. I have chosen to read to them because I do like the dramatic voices and I do accents and I just make it hilarious. Even for myself. I laugh at myself, the things I'm doing and, and, you know, I've been finding that it actually Bond's us together. My kids are like, drooling over the story that I'm telling them they're so enthralled with whatever I'm doing, and it starts our day off in a more peaceful place, a more bonded splay space. And that's how I've been starting our day and then after that, we go ahead and start With all the boring stuff, the chores and having breakfast, and you know all the boring stuff, and then yeah, and then we normally save any like, hard work that we need to work on. If there's a big science project or something my kids want to do, or if my daughter wants to bake, she's really into baking. I'll save that when the babies are going down for their nap. And so my older kids know that when the babies go down for their nap, that's our hour and a half together that we get to do something messy or we get to do something really hard that normally the babies distract us from. And so my kids know that that hour and a half is our golden time together. And so after the babies wake up from their nap, then the rest of the day is sort of very flexible. If they want to continue learning something if they want to go out play if they want to go on a field trip to a museum or to the library or zoo. They usually do have some online classes that they take depending on what they're interested in. They take some classes online. And so there really is no typical day. We have A lot of playdates a lot of socializing. I know a lot of people are concerned about socializing. But my kids probably have more friends than public school kids have. It's like insane how many friends they have. Yeah, they, there's a lot of homeschoolers. And so they interact with each other all the time, they learn together, they teach each other things. And so they get tremendous amount of socializing, but not just with their peers, also with the peers, siblings, and they, they socialize with adults, which I think is an important part of socializing. In public school, you actually are told to stop socializing, you're told to be quiet and sit in your seat and pay attention. But it's fun. It's funny, that topic of socialization in homeschooling, but um, yeah, that's what our typical day is we try to make a lot of a lot of space for family, a lot of space for chores and space for friends and for interactive activities.
Angela :Wow, interesting. And you mentioned that standardized test is that something that's kind of just put in place so you're able to kind of calibrate that curriculum you're designing at home with the public schools and other more formal schooling systems.
Ashley :So I don't think so the standardized testing in New York, we had to do that only starting in fourth and fifth grade. So I didn't have to take the standardized test in New York at all, because my kids were too young when I was living there. But now that I'm in California, they asked me to take the standardized test. And it's optional. You don't have to do it. But if you are going with a charter school in California, then they really encourage you to take it because the charter schools look better if they are, you know, reporting results and stuff like that. So that's the standardized test is something that they take online, and then take it at the beginning of the year. And then you take the same one again at the end of the year to see what progress you've made and to see if there's any areas of weakness, and I don't think it has anything to do with the curriculum, because as a homeschool year, you don't even have to pick a curriculum and all you can design your own. So I don't think it has anything to do with like seeing if you're hitting standards or not. thing but that all may be starting to change. They're starting since now there's more homeschoolers coming in from the public school system. They're starting to see if they can, you know, have some more control over homeschoolers and standard stuff like that.
Angela :And you mentioned a very interesting point about how your kids have a lot of other friends that are also homeschoolers and how do they actually meet our, our, there are meetings at the charter school that you have to go to. So people still get to see like, you know, people in real life, and then they continue to keep maintain contact or like keep in touch and you know, check in and just hang out and be real friends in real life after that.
Ashley :Yeah. Yeah. So they have homeschool groups. Basically, when I was in New York, we had them and then when I moved to California, like I said, that was part of like, the adjustment process for me was actually the homeschool community. So there's usually homeschool playdates at the park, where you can meet other homeschoolers and then you kind of gravitate towards certain homeschool families, like people who have the same kids, like same age kids, or maybe kids who play really well together. It just kind of naturally happens when your kids are at the park, they just sort of gravitate like a magnet to certain kids. And then you know, you change phone numbers with the mom. And then you guys get together more often. And you start to develop friendships that way. But other times my kids have made friends just with kids at the museum or kids at the library, the same sort of thing. And then other times my kids have made friends with people they've met on their online classes, like it's a live online class. So they're all seeing each other on video. So my kids have made friends that way. And so it's just so many different ways that they actually do make friends that I feel like they have more opportunity to do that they have more chances to see different kids rather than seeing the same kids every single day. So yeah, I know that's a very common question I get is about my kids socializing and having friends.
Angela :It sounds like it's easier. than we imagined, I guess, maybe just like some stereotypical kind of impression of homeschooling. I feel like oh, does that mean you don't have friends? Actually, no, you do.
Ashley :Yeah. Are you home? I mean, the other thing I think people think about home schoolers is that we're always home. And I feel like actually, we're never home. All day long. We're like going somewhere. And like, we're always in the car, it should be called car schooling, because we're always driving somewhere. So yeah, so you're almost never home and you're almost always going somewhere and experiencing the real world. And, you know, in a lot of ways, my son always says that he feels sorry for kids that have to go to school and that they don't get to experience the real world. Like they're kind of always in their classroom, and they're always with the same people. They don't get to do a lot of field trips. And, you know, I do feel sad for a week, the kids now with this upcoming school year with how things are gonna change. It's definitely something that nobody saw coming. I think with the way things are gonna change with kids socializing and getting to go on field trips and stuff. So I know a lot of parents We're going to be considering homeschooling and and wondering if they can make it work. And there's a lot of stereotypes about homeschooling. It's almost like the race issue, you know, people, people assume certain things about people without knowing the facts. And I was definitely one of them. You know, I didn't think I would ever homeschool but, but now I know better. So I like spreading the word.
Dana :Yeah, actually, you kind of answered my question. I was really curious. I wanted to ask if, if you if you are seeing more people starting deciding to homeschool due to pandemic?
Ashley :Yes, yes. Hundreds of thousands of people are flocking into the homeschool groups and messaging me and asking for help with finding a curriculum and finding you know, socializing opportunities. And just all the questions that you guys sort of asked me about homeschooling. There's parents who are just feeling like they're in the corner, they're being backed into this corner and they need to hurry up and figure out something for their kids. So yeah, there's a lot of people that are not comfortable returning their kids to the school system the way it's going to be. And they're turning into homeschooling, even if it is just temporary, they're definitely not happy with sending their kids back. If I were a parent, that's probably something that I will consider right now.
Dana :How do you design your curriculum? Or Or how do you decide? You know, and in the long run, let's say from now until, I don't know, 18, or something? Do you sort of have like a overarching plan for your kids?
Ashley :So I mean, kind of in keeping with the theme of your podcast, actually, like, I'm trying to imagine what their long term career goals might be. And I don't ask them I kind of just observe them to see what are the things that they naturally seem to be interested in? What are the toys that they always seem to gravitate towards? Like, what are they doing in their free time? On the weekends and in the summers? When I'm not as strict with them with schoolwork? What are the things that they naturally like and when I watch them, I see them doing the same things over and over. So for my son, it was always about animals like insects and different jungle animals and snakes and that sort of thing. So since I saw him always watching shows about that and playing with those toys, and whenever we would go to the library, he would always pick the same types of books. So since I noticed that about him, I decided to make my curriculum revolve around animals. And so I would pull out a bunch of books about that I would look up worksheets about that. And I would design a curriculum that helped him learn more about animals. And truthfully, my son was really like very independent with his learning. So he would tell me what he wanted to learn. He would say, I want to know where cheetahs come from. I want to know all the different species. I want to know how big they get. I want to know how much they weigh. And he was just a very inquisitive mind, and I encourage that, but I mean, my daughter is more quiet and she didn't know what she wanted to know. She just wanted to be able to do things and not be told. No, it's time to clean up time to go to school time to do this time to do So my daughter was always more of the person that was like, Mom, you're planning too many things for me I need to just have time to be at home so I can be in my creative zone. So I had to give her that space of having a lot of art supplies at her hand having sewing materials, having pastels having rhinestone applicators, hot glue guns, like I hate give her a lot of resources so that she can design and right now she's launching like a T shirt business where she's designing her own t shirts for her kids. Yeah. So seven, seven Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah, I'm letting her get an experience and she has a few people ordering from her and they're nothing like it's not like a super special t shirt. It's really just a shirt that he drew on. But because it looks so custom and it is custom a lot of my husband's friends have been encouraging her and buying from her so she's getting to see like, what their what expenses, go into starting a business, you know, find the markers, find the T shirts and then you have to deduct that from your profit. So she didn't A lot of math in trying to calculate what our profit is so she can buy her next toy. Amazing. Yeah, so our curriculum is really not something that I can plan so far in advance, I really have to live in the moment with them and see what they're interested in. And it even is hard to buy a curriculum like this because it's just not available. Like there's nobody who's really thinking out of the box like this. If you try to buy a curriculum for homeschooling, you're gonna get more and more of the same, like, Sam sat on the mat. And Sam ran after the dog. And it's like, yes, you're going to learn to read because those words are very easy, but the reading has no meaning and you're not going to read in your free time. So for me reading is so important. I prioritize reading the first thing we do in the day and I get them a lot of books about things that they like so that they read for pleasure. And that's basically what my curriculum is, is reading for pleasure and having their interests be woven into everything that they do. So that way when they are, like 18, and it's time for them to pick a career, hopefully they've already had a chance to experience like a little bit of their career like for my daughter, she's getting to experience entrepreneurship right now to see if that's something she wants to take further and let it snowball. And, you know, for my son to he's also really into Minecraft and Madden and all these video games. So he wants to design his own video game he wants to do, like video game tutorials and learn coding and so it's been very different to have two of them I can't imagine when my twins start homeschooling to have to also to also get to guide them in their interests. Like I said, they're so different. But yeah, so our curriculum is just so different from child to child. It's it has a lot of me thinking long term and also trying to live in the moment and create as custom of a plan for them as I possibly can.
Dana :So if there are people who see your friends family who want to get homeschooling and try and come and ask you for advice and suggestions, what would you tell them to do?
Ashley :Um, so I do get that question pretty much every day. And I tell people that if you're thinking about homeschooling, the first thing to do is actually something called D schooling. And so d schooling is kind of like detoxing your brain and your mind from the normal traditional ways of learning. And the reason we tell people to do that, and the reason why we say you cannot skip it, it's so important is that you need to start thinking about learning differently. Learning is not something you do in a chair at eight o'clock from 8am to 3pm, and then turn off the brain. And then on the weekends, turn off the brain and then on the summers turn off the brain. It's like, No, you need to learn and this is for parents to not just for the kids is to learn how to let your lifestyle the things you guys do naturally. Whatever it is that your family is passionate about. Anything interested in, let that be a part of your learning and try to relax into your lifestyle and make it be more organic and not just like okay, school only happens from eight to three. And after those hours, we cannot do anything with learning. And so d schooling is about changing your mind detoxing your mind and learning about how to learn differently, how to think differently. And so it's it's a hard process for a lot of parents to do because they want to immediately jump into curriculum suggestions and finding co ops and they want to get right in with their feet and start the learning process. So that's usually the first step is to encourage parents to D school to encourage them to change the way that they think about learning. And to just stay in that face of D schooling we usually say like at least two weeks that you need to have no structured learning, no structured plans, no structured places, no structure, just two weeks of enjoying time together going on field trips together, asking each other questions. Let it you know, letting your kid ask you questions about things you love and just bonding and creating a trusting relationship with each other where your child's gonna feel comfortable learning with you, your child has to come to see you as a partner, and like someone who they collaborate with someone who is going to encourage them and not someone who's going to be breathing down their neck, reading their papers, being like, didn't I just tell you how to spell this word yesterday? How come you don't know how to spell it today? You know, it's it has to be a change in the dynamic. And it's something that can only really happen during the D schooling process. So that's usually where I tell parents to start is there. And then after D schooling is over, or while D schooling is happening, I tell them to do all of the administrative stuff was looking up laws in your state about what are the laws since they do vary so much, and looking up different learning styles. Since children have such different learning styles. You can be a visual learner or an auditory learner. And so it's important to see like What is the way your child learns best? So during the D schooling process, we suggest parents to do that as well.
Angela :That's a very interesting, I think that the schooling concept is so cool and and i think you really basically brought up a really good point when you said that your daughter who's seven right now is, you know, learning all of entrepreneurship and that profit, actually, you only have a profit after you consider all of your expenses. And honestly, I don't think that's a concept that you learn until much later on in life if you were to be stuck with the current, like more mainstream kind of education system, and I think it's really eye opening. That's so amazing.
Ashley :Yeah, yeah, thank you.
Angela :And I guess just curious because you know, because of dependent demmick and all of I guess most people that are working or are able to work from home, are working from home and a lot of people are having, you know, like some struggles with like keeping, I guess, the so called work life balance because they're adjusting to doing everything in their homeland. It sounds to me like homeschooling off. Sounded like I guess I'm not Well, before we met him before our conversation today sounded to me like, you know, everything happens within the home. But do you have any suggestions or tips on, you know, helping with, I guess the school life balance? If there's any issues at all with your kids? What do you mean like for them balancing schoolwork? Because then they're kind of you're the person that's providing the education and you're the teacher for them and with them, but then you know, you're obviously their mom and appearance. So you're also spending like, the remainder of their life when they're technically not in school with them. Do you find it? sometimes difficult to kind of step outside of the classroom? In a sense where Okay, we need to like stop thinking about schooling things and now shifting to like, have more family time for the day.
Ashley :I see what you mean. I think in the beginning, it was hard because I compartmentalize everything. And that's what I don't want homeschool parents to do is to compartmentalize learning. So I used to do that I used to say like, okay, the morning time is our time for learning. And then after our learning time was over, we would start, like, I felt like I had to step out of the classroom, you know, as you said, and start parenting them and telling them to do their chores. And now that it's my third year, I just finished my third year of homeschooling, I realized that it's so much more important to not compartmentalize our learning and compartmentalize our parenting. It's so much more important to leave that all in together. So like, for example, when we're washing dishes, and like, we can't get the oil off the dish, and my daughter's like, why does the oil not wash off the dish? And then I say, well, because you need to emulsify it like you need soap in order to break down the fat and the oil. So that's why we need to use the soap. And so as we're washing the dishes together, and I'm teaching her about the proper way to wash the dishes off, because yes, I wash my dishes before I put them in the dishwasher.
Angela :Like why don't we all do that. I don't know. Can I do that? No, I
Ashley :Yeah, thank you for admitting that. So yeah, I am I wash the dishes before we put them in. And we talk about a little bit of science when she's curious about it because she asked, Why doesn't the oil wash off? So instead of us doing the whole oil experiment, we just brought that into real life? So to answer your question, I kind of just stopped compartmentalizing my parents enroll from the learning time I kind of make them all weaving together because they do weave in all together. And you know, even when we're watching a movie, and my kids ask 1000 questions during movies about why did she just do that? Or where did she go? Or is that her sister and I try to really encourage them to pause the movie and ask questions and we discuss things. And so for me, it's been about mixing things and not making things so compartmentalised with parenting and with learning.
Dana :I think we learned so much about you and about homeschooling today. And
Ashley :I feel like this one it's went off in a whole nother direction with homeschooling, right?
Angela :Yeah, it's a really whole new perspective to look at learning, I think for people and even adults to, you know, like, just to kind of, you know, it's something that we kind of feel like, Oh, you know, I finished, I graduated college and you know, whatever degree I have, that doesn't, you know, I feel like I'm not really learning anymore, but a new perspective of looking at learning that's interweaved into your daily life. And especially, I think, something that would be helpful for parents to do a little bit more consciously is, you know, to not have like what you said, compartmentalize, you know, your classroom time and then you know, separating that from your everyday life. I think it's a very refreshing way of looking at that.
Ashley :Yeah, I think it's a more natural way of living life to I feel like kids are going to lead you in that direction. Naturally, they're going to ask you what color the stop sign is, or they're going to ask you like, why that bug is said on the sidewalk or they're going to ask you like, Why are the police in the deli right now? Aren't they supposed to be at work right now and, like these are all things that my kids have asked me about. Like, why are the police officers in here at the deli with us? I'm like, because police officers are real people who have families. And, you know, it's just you never know what's on your kid's mind until you create that space for them where they feel comfortable asking you those types of questions. And it lends itself really naturally to, you know, school subjects that you can naturally if you're thinking about if you're trying to be intentional about bringing real life scenarios into your child's mind, then you can be very intentional about having those conversations with them. And I've been doing this with my kids as young as when they were like, three or four years old when they're at that stage of asking a lot of questions. You know, as they get older, they stop asking questions, and they start thinking more inside their mind. And that's when it's like, Okay, I hope we have the relationship where you feel comfortable enough to share with me, what's on your mind, you know, and so, we have a responsibility, I think, to guard our relationship with our kids as much as we can and I feel like homeschooling has given that back to me and so now even when I do do go back to work. If I if I go back to where I feel like the things I've learned during this time has taught me besides just the parenting and the learning aspect, it's also taught me how important it is to have other passions like outside of the medical fields, I've learned for myself how powerful it is to be able to learn something new, just watching my kids learn things. And learning, never over learning is always happening. My kids are always teaching me that. And, you know, I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful that I've gotten that perspective. And I don't feel like you know, I went to college, I got my degree. And now here I am in adult world. Someone. Give me the manual for what I do next, you know?
Dana :Well, lastly, Ashley, where can people reach you if they have questions for you or for homeschooling?
Ashley :Yeah, so I just launched my own podcast. It's called the homeschool conversation podcast. Yeah. So I thank you. It's been fun. So we do all types of interviews on that podcast where I interview View homeschoolers who have grown up and now they're adults and see where they are now. And I even interviewed my own kids so that you could hear it right from their own mouth, what they're learning. I've interviewed just a whole bunch of different people in the homeschool communities just to help displace that fear that people have with homeschooling. So that's one place you can find me. I'll send you my link for that. And then I do also have my Facebook page, which I'm just under Ashley Davis, and I have a homeschool blog called the chaos I love. It's just the word, the chaos I love. And so I'll send you the link for that. So that if anyone has homeschool questions, or even questions about transitioning away from the medical fields, you know, I'm more than happy to ease people's fears and answer questions about those things. Wonderful. Thank you so much. Well, thank you guys, too. This was so much fun. Thank you. We'll be in touch if you have more questions.