WIPp 021 Maria Seletskaja: From Principal Soloist to Conductor

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Today we have the honor of speaking with a conductor who, for the first 15 years of her working life, was a principal soloist ballet dancer. She graced the stages at the Royal Ballet of Flanders, Staatsballett Berlin, Zürich Ballet and Estonian National Ballet while continuing her musical studies in parallel. She is the first female conductor who danced on stage and has in-depth knowledge of ballet musical pieces as well as the dance choreography themselves. It was indescribable how much passion and enthusiasm seeped through Maria's voice - stories of her growing up in Estonia, her upbringing in a culture of arts and discipline, and her mother's significant role in Maria's discovering her calling in music should not be missed.  

If you appreciate art, passion, sense of humor and wholehearted candor, then you do not want to skip this conversation with Maria Seletskaja. 

 
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Transcript

Maria : 0:00

It's as simple as that if you are lucky enough to find your calling, no effort is perceived as effort. And I wish to everyone in this world to find their calling because I think we have very often stuck with someone else's dreams, no analysis ambitions, or do we think that something will make us happy, but actually it doesn't. I really hope that my example will pave the way for some people who might have been doubting and but didn't have as much courage as I have.

Dana : 0:57

Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Welcome back to the wicked pockets podcast. Today we're talking to Maria and Maria is a ballet dancer turned conductor. In 2019, she worked as a conductor in residence with the National Ballet of Canada. And she has many, many more exciting opportunities coming up for her in the near future. So welcome, Maria. Thank you for joining us today. And I was wondering if you could give us a little bit of introduction to yourself, and we'll take it from there. And feel free to talk about anything you like. It doesn't have to be just restricted to careers. You can talk about you know, whatever you want to talk about. So all topics are welcome and then we can go from there.

Maria : 2:06

Hello everyone, my name is Marius Seletskaja. I am 36 years old Estonian born ex ballet dancer and currently orchestra conductor. I'm a single mother to a six year old son. So that makes my life even more interesting. To to begin with, I was born in Soviet Union and I was raised in a strict way. It was a common thing back then in time, and my upbringing included not just a regular education path, but my parents tried to engage me in as many activities as possible which was not so uncommon in general, Soviet Union was allowing always to have extra curriculum activities. So apart from attending school, I was going to music school I did threaten gymnastics I, I was studying English. I was dancing. So my days were basically filled from the morning to the evening. But at the age of nine, by chance, actually by chance, I was not really dreaming to be become a dancer. But it happened by chance that I told my mother that I will be going through the exams to enter the Valley School and luck was probably on my side. I was accepted with certain precautionary words from teachers who said I was lacking certain physical abilities. which some of which could have been trained and developed during the years of education, but some not. But I was determined to prove to everyone that I would make it work for myself and so, the years of travel they started, so, I have been studying Valley for nine years. So this is normally the time that it takes to become a professional ballet dancer. So you you, you enter ballet school at the age of between nine and 11 traditionally, and then you got to sort of go through the middle and high school or here so there and then you graduate as a as a professional ballet dancer and you can start working which is, I think, very uncommon for any other area of action. PVT because Valley dances they stopped working at the age of 13 1819. This is the time when vast majority of people actually start going to college or university. So, this is the difference. But also the problem with that is that the career span is very short. We normally retire at the age of 40. And I would say that this is probably the age where as we call them, normal people, normal people actually get their feet under them in their professions, you know, they have not only graduated and done their grads, post grads doctorates and PhDs and they have also gained certain experience in their working field. By this time, we Considering that we are considered pension people, and most of the dancers they are I mean, every dancer is faced with the absolutely dreadful decision what to do after in the life after belly. And some of denseness actually not that lucky and they really fall deep down because I'm to give a brief overview, you start dancing probably at the age of four. Normally, you know, you start attending dance classes and stuff here in America and states. I know people do step and they do all kinds of show dancing as well. And you know, it's time consuming, it's energy and soul consuming. So when you actually start doing professional education, you don't have anything but Valley. I mean, you obviously have your mathematics and geography and Languages and Literature. This new study, I mean, we are not uneducated people. But we are faced with a much greater workload because apart from for following the normal national curriculum, we have a whole bunch of professional related subjects. And plus, they actually dance related subjects you know, like ballet and partnering, dance and characters, historical dance, all kinds of gyms and stuff, all kinds of cross training across you know, music history, ballet, history, art, history, all kinds of things, you know, which one needs to know in order to be able to go on stage and depict certain era or a book or certain historical questionnaire so it's all part of the package. So you end up going to school from eight in the morning till sometimes nine in the evening. Yes, and if your prefer, when you're 16-17, you'll often end up also performing together with the name Valley as a part of their core Valley, so sometimes you know, your days go till the till 1011 when the last act of the valley finish. So this is so this is what it is. So what I'm trying to say is that if you you're not passionate about it, you there's no way you are going to survive it. So of course, it's very beautiful because I would say that most of the dancers would probably tell you that they're living their dream. Although it's very painful and difficult and demanding profession. It's painful, both mentally and physically. But it was a choice once you have choice of everyone. It's a passion and obsession in some cases. So it is very hard to see outside the bubble. So and then, needless to say, it is very hard to find something which will be equally engaging in the life after so dancers they really go into teaching, but there are not so many teachers needed. There are not so many features needed. So, you know, people need to look for the future occupation. So I was lucky, because I have had certain moments during my career, you know, some injuries and some moments when I was forced to stop. So I had time to think and reflect time to doubt maybe. And I was lucky enough to encounter certain people who would think give me ideas. And since I was playing, I play piano since I'm four and a half. So I started piano approximately the same time as I started dancing, but much earlier than I went to Valley School, so I kept playing piano throughout my ballet training and throughout my Valley career as well. So I had that and Second passion in my life something which was in this unseparable part of my life. And some people just actually suggested they said, or why don't you contemplate about becoming a conductor for ballet, because you have certain expectation, both Valley and music. I mean, you could study music more deeply. And then you could merge two worlds together. Because on a side note, there's an orchestra conducting as such, you know, it's something what people who go to concerts, see, you know, conduct accounts and all leads an orchestra and he is sort of free to do whatever he wants with any musical piece. He can interpret it in the ways he wants to obey the tradition, or or maybe make a breakthrough and and others Meanwhile ballet because it involves a lot of movement and movement on cart to fit the musical train. This dance the choreographic text, which dances execute, has to fit the music so music is restricted. And music has in in ideal world music has to help dancers perform the best. You know, I would say if to make a corporation, if you if you are a runner at the Olympics and wind blows in your back, you're more likely to reach a gold medal faster. You know, so music can help you if music is played. In a better way, if it starts exactly at the launching point of a jump of events, or if the seven accent allowed music catches a dancer in The air when he needs to, you know, dance can perform better or sometimes you know if music starts too early or if music is too fast what happens dancer starts his solo her solo and ends up chasing the music all the time wasting physical, physical resources, and dancing Of course worse. But that ballet classical ballet, it looks effortless. It's looks very easy, but it's the hardest thing I have ever been engaged in. It's hard. So for me when I when I thought, you know, maybe I could conduct for them. I said, but why not? Maybe, maybe I could finally help dancers. I mean, not Finally I can say there are many fine, valid conductors. But, of course, I'm the only one right now and I spoke with several people who are in the field and they said They have never really heard of a valid answer. Conductor I have heard of one many years ago, decades ago in Salina. But now right now, there's no one. So it gives me a certain advantage. Because when Valley companies, Valley directors, they hear about an extensor, who is able to lead an orchestra, they are definitely interested. So I know that I'll be able to hopefully, earn my breath and not only just bread but the butter to eat as well in the future, so I see that some some directors, some companies, they are of course a bit cautious, they're interested but they are waiting for me to get gain more experience. Fair enough. I understand it. But I think in a few years time when I will have an experience and hopefully good name. I think I will have more than enough jobs to do so. And then another little thing is that among conductors about among musicians, Valley Music is considered a second second sort, lower sort of music and not many conductors are actually willing to become a conductor specifically for ballet. If to conduct theater music, then they prefer to be lucky. Because it's considered to be more. More shake outside of a higher rank, of course ever, ever conducted dreams to go on the stage of Carnegie Hall, you know, there's been a lot of money there and majestic, amazing concert halls, but not everyone gets there. And sometimes the thing you know, would be lovely, of course, but in general, what I want is just to be able to stand in front of an orchestra and conduct music, a piece of music No matter what, it just makes me happy. Yeah, this is this was I guess my long introduction.

Dana : 15:07

Thank you. Thank you for the introduction, I can really hear your passion and how much story is behind, you know, your experiences, and I really hadn't. This is a lot of this is new information for me, because I've never really spoken with a conductor before. So I really appreciate all the information and I yeah, so I was reading up a little bit about, you know, conducting, before I decided before I talk to you and I found that there's an interesting kind of comparison. So what I read or what the way I understood it is that conductor is sort of also like a musician and the orchestra that they are conducting is their instrument and, and it gives them and I think it's really amazing that you actually do get Like you said, you get a lot of freedom to interpret, you can choose to follow the traditional way of presenting a piece. Or you can interpret this piece in your own different way, in your own individual way. And I think that, I wonder how that feels like, compared to when you're a ballet dancer. Does this feel like you have more freedom? Or? Or was belly the same? But I just didn't know about that?

Maria : 16:25

Actually, it's a very good question that you asked. Wow. It's in a weird way now that I think it's in a weird way. Very similar because look, if you have, if you're a musician, you have a score, in my case, orchestra score, where every single note that is being played by an orchestra is written is there. So you have a canvas, you have a canvas to ready to be drawn on. So you and you know, you just need to disappear. The sort of composer and try to understand what was he trying to convey with what he had put on paper. And as a dancer, you also learned steps, you know, it's very, it's a very strict second sequence of steps, which is were put on the music very precisely. It's, you know, we come to music very differently than musicians. Because we Yeah, it's just a different way of perceiving music. But, you know, if there's a certain step has to be executed on three, it has to be on three and not on three end and not on entry and not on two. Because especially if you have to dance together with someone has to say, so, you know, there are strict rules. And then also, there's such a thing as keeping the choreographer sport intact. So, if you look at a swan, a ballet it's one like the one of the most famous Valley which has been created 440 years ago. A lot of the original choreographic text has vanished. Because back in time, there was no video, there was no way of writing things down. There have been several attempts to notate it. But you know, it's not like a mathematical formula where you write x plus equals two times AC, you know, it's not that you know, so, but right now, these days and current times the very strict way of very precise way of not taking a choreography choreographic, both language has been developed. It's, it has five lines just like a musical notation. If I'm a complete profile, I don't know exactly but if I'm not mistaken, one line goes ahead. Then there is a line for arms line four legs, I think Woody. So, so the the the choreographic language can be written down with utmost precision. It's spectacular. And then there are this specialists, very often excellences themselves who have studied, if I'm not mistaken for years, it's a long study. And they are able to look at the video or they are present during rehearsals during creation. When choreographer creates. They just sit there and write this paper, which looks like Talmud, it looks like some sort of hero glyphs. You don't understand anything. But then, when the work is being recreated five years later, or 10 years later, on the other side of the globe, it's going to be recreated in exact way how it was created. So this is an advantage. So now going back to the music, of course, you learn the steps or you learn your notes, but then it's always the same if there are two Piano is playing the same canopies. notes are the same, then we have the same they both have the same score but b sounds different. And if there are two dances, we're executing the principal role, let's say in Swan Lake, we have definite deal, they execute the same steps. They exactly steps on the same moment in music and stuff, but they look the role braces in a different way. So this is this is where we come to the freedom. You're in some way restricted because you have to follow what has been written down by creators. But when you're in individuality comes into play. And even if you want to strictly copy someone, be the conductor if I want to conduct the piece the way some idol of mine conducts, or if I want to dance the way some idol of mine dance, it will never work. Because you have different physical you have different way of phrasing different way of thinking. Different mimics different everything. So yeah, the steps will be recognizable. Nice. Most of the cameras will be the same. But the the little shades will always be different.

Dana : 21:14

So I understand that being a conductor you need to have you need to do a lot of studying in terms of music. And Have you always been doing that since you were little when you're a ballet dancer?

Maria : 21:25

Yes, as much as I remember myself, I always have piano. It was always there. I don't remember a time when I was not able to play piano. I know that age of four and a half so I don't remember the process of learning it. I just thought I was good played. And there was a time when I was contemplating stopping dancing because as you remember how I was describing how much effort you need to put during your studying a year in ballet. So it Valley was Net outweighing music. But my mother she taught me this one wise phrase she said, I beg you Don't stop playing piano you don't need to practice for five hours a day you're not contemplating becoming a pianist. But Play, play one and a half hours a day, just enough to keep your fingers growing just enough to have not the progress but just to keep the level shut because one day when you will grow, you will experience feelings really happy or sad ones but so strong, that words won't be enough to express and then you will be able to sit at the piano and play your heart out. And little did you know that because of this advice I wish I follow with like so nice face back then because in the back in the time but I think A lot and I don't regret because as soon as I graduated from school and I started having much more free time on my hands because you know, there was no mathematics and no history to do, you know, there was your class, you go to, to the opera house for your job you do your class, there's the daily class one and a half hours of classes like you know, amen. Everyone does the same. It's a sequence of rigorous exercises, which are tailored to not only warm up your body, but also to keep and hopefully to increase your technical capacity. And then you have your daily rehearsals and they always the amount of them always varies according to what you dance and how many shows there are and what roles you are. cast it for. So sometimes you might work from from Then kill six straight. But sometimes you might have like, you know, you have a class and then you have a little break because someone else's writing video rehearse and then you have again a break. So it's varies and then on most of the days then you have also performance in the evening. So, but you suddenly have this gaps so I didn't, I being 18 leaving alone without my family in another city. Like in time I still lived in Estonia, but I lived away from my family and in the capital. So I was most of the time feeling lonely. And I didn't know what to do because you know, you did not get connected socially did not grow into into a grown up world so you don't know what to do. So I picked up piano, and there were lots of pianos in the opera house. There was always a room free with a piano so I ended up practicing. So I went back from one and a half hours, which I could do during school years. I went back to my four year for four hours a day. So I started practicing it a lot. Now, one hour here, 45 minutes there before the show after the show, and it would come to a good chunk of time a day. And I realized that like, I forget about the time when I play music, and I was never playing, playing to be a concert pianist No, I always knew I don't want that. But then someone advised me Why don't you think about my life on that? You know, you, you you know what the music is about. So why don't you sing? And I first thought that no, this is impossible because Gods gods or conductors are Gods for dancers conductor supports. You don't approach the conductor you don't complain to conductor. There is a principal star dancer who, who is having difficulties arranging his or her steps in the music. They might interrupt their solo in the middle of the music. You don't raise the hands on stationery. Sorry, you know, I've been very dramatic thing happens. You know, and all this 95 people, they stop playing, you know, it's a huge thing like you don't stop the orchestra conductor might stop the orchestra, but from the stage, you just don't stop the orchestra. That's the rule. So, you know, when I was told to advise to become one of these goals? No, no, no swana really your failure whoever and john are conducted, but you know, the seed was planted that and I won't go through all the phases, there were lots of lucky encounters and little moments signs, probably something you know, like, I would say, like little pebbles, which lead me through the mud of uncertainty, I would say, you just don't know where to go. But suddenly you see a little pebble there and you step on it. So one would always give me an advice or give me a hand or show me something and guide and it took me some years to figure out how to get certain training. While being a dancer, because I have to support myself, you know, and I could not just drop a ballot every year and go to the music academy and my life from beginning on I, I somehow tried to sit on the chair, so the same time. So I found certain ways to study, because there's a lot of theoretical studies, it's not just playing the piano. There are lots of subjects which you need, one needs to learn in order to be able to interpret the score as a conductor, so I needed to find ways to get acquainted with that. And only when I was, I knew that I understood everything that's written in the score, I started contemplating about how to actually study conducting, but I was always very little worried about nothing. So because I thought, you know, I really learn how to manage my body. So I knew that the conducting technique itself, I would be Learn, but then by the time when I actually came to the face of learning Valley or the the orchestra conducting technique, my son was born. So they The idea is as I'm a single mother, I knew that leaving Valley you know, because I was contemplating, you know, maybe stopping was Valley going doing 353 plus two years for undergrad and grad two in music and then start a new career there. My son was born and stopping was out of question. I needed the support team and I could not go to live in a dorm and get on a campus somewhere. No wealthy parents who would be able to support you know, hire human nanny or stuff like this. Okay, brace yourself, Maria, you have to pull it through somehow. Then again, I have lots of lucky encounters. There were some people who helped me some people who believed in me Just looking back, I just think that probably I was meant to do it. And I think that this is my calling not the ballet Valley was a passion. But music is really I feel it's my calling it makes me happy. And then I somehow managed to do seemingly impossible. But because I was lucky, someone out there up there helped me to manage. So yes, I have now retired from Valley one and a half years ago and, and you know, the decision to actually really stop the valley and tell myself that okay. Our music is taking over. And in order to do music better, I need to stop sitting in the chairs. Like we say in Russian, like your arms, my throat if you sit on the chair. So I decided to shift onto one chair and say thank you very much. By library I have danced professionally for 15 years, 15 years out of 20 it's a good accomplishment, oh my god, I think it's good accomplishment. And I said, Okay, fine. And I sort of retired into nowhere I was at that moment into nowhere I knew to be freelancing. I was very feeling fearful but I knew that I want to do to become a better conductor. And that requires time. And then you know, I think I saw the list and he saw that they made the right decision because one week after my final performance I I received my contract for the nation values Canada. So I think it was a great decision.

Angela : 30:47

I love that you talked about the story between your and your mom how she kind of talked to you about Oh, just you know, practice enough to get through in and to remember so that your fingers kind of remember what it's like to play. You know, a song by You know, like, don't spend so much time but you sacrifice your, you know, training for ballet and I felt like I've heard definitely heard something along those lines from my mom as well. Although I didn't have the second half of your story where you actually picked it back up and then you know, wanted to spend more time for yourself, but I guess I'm curious like Did your mom have similar upbringings or like similar background in music and dance with you? Is that why she thought, Oh, this is wonderful. I love it and you should try it.

Maria : 31:25

Not my mom. My mother has no musical upbringing at all. She is a dancer, dance teacher, but she is like a hobby dance teacher. You know, in past Soviet bloc, there are lots of so called dance groups, where kids go after school and they dance it and then they get to perform. They go to some festivals, but it's not a professional dance. It's not a ballet school where you know, you say it's going to be my profession. I'm going to earn my living with that. Yeah, people can drop out whenever they want, but mostly they stick to the end of high school. Cool. So I started dancing there. It's just you know, a regular dancing. We did some little ballet training but without without, without exaggeration, is she's a big ballet lover. She She I think she was training to become a ballet dancer back in time, but for various reasons that didn't work. I mean, she'd never even enrolled in ballet school. So I think partially through her dream we got into ballet school. We it means we have four sisters and we all went through ballet school. My youngest sister is 19 years my junior and she is graduating from Valley school this year. He had graduation gala was canceled just now because oh. So we are hoping that they will somehow reconsider and maybe give them an extra half year to graduate maybe. It's a big mess, but it's a big mess worldwide. So yeah, we, we cannot complain, you know, and so like for us, everyone is in the same boat man. Now so my mother has zero connection with music, but I think she appreciates it, you know, but but I am sure that this thing about music, she said that she dropped this face. unknowingly, I would say I think she just thought felt that it would be easy to just let all these years of efforts go, because I was quite advanced in piano. If I did not go to ballet school, I could have easily become a professional pianist. It was going quite easily. But without knowing she gave me this life changing advice.

Dana : 33:48

What was that? What was your friends and family's reaction when when you told them that you are going to become a conductor

Maria : 34:00

You know, reaction back then and reaction and confession now they are polar. Because Oh yeah, great go for you. You know what I was saying actually by saying that, you know, I'm going to be an orchestra conductor translated to human language, it would mean I am going to fly on the moon to the moon without a spacesuit landed on the moon, take my kids shovel and shovel some some probe from the moon and bring it back and I will compensate you all in Sputnik you know, I split from 6959 this is what I was saying basically, why because you remember how I talked about training and valley. The same in music is equally time consuming in music. So one excludes another I know many people who have who are gifted in both in Egypt, but at some point they all have to choose. And in fact, when there was some interest of mine coming out a couple of months ago, and I have had some people writing to me on Instagram and they ask for advice, you know, like what, what should I do Maria you know, look, I'm doing this and girls shows that she's playing a cello in orchestra and you know, obviously if you play Northstowe, you need to be already very, very advanced. But then I'm also doing this and then you show a sense of value for the way she looks absolutely gorgeous. And you see that she in order to achieve what they see in a bottle, you need to work their heart. And unfortunately, with with being a performing musician, player, you will have to at some point, choose you know, it's not the conducting which you can do a bit later. within, within being an orchestra play or a soloist, you need to start right away and then don't drop it. You know, I was not intending to, to perform on stage. I did it as a ballet dancer. So but so going back to that, I basically said that I'm going on an impossible mission. And now looking back, I actually tell myself, I have no idea how I have pulled it on. I have no idea. But I had while being in it, I have never had even a glimpse of doubt. what I was doing, I was just going simply towards not a dream, it would be too cheesy to say, it's much simpler than that. I was just going to words, happier world. I was going towards something what would make me genuinely happy? And that's why I never had even a glimpse of thought. I mean, are we talking about giving up so Life. Yeah. And there was no going out to bars or anything for 10 years and with my kid, especially, you know, no, you you go for work, you go pick up your kids from school or kindergarten, you go home, you buy stuff with kids and their kid goes to bed and then you start studying and musical subjects, you know, till 3am three, three, sometimes 334, whatever needed face falling asleep. On the table, it has happened or using every single break for practice, I started violin as well in order to learn how strings working in the, in the orchestra. So if there was no such thing as rest, there was another theory of my mom, that rest is not being on the sofa in a frog position. But arrest isn't simply a change of activity. So this was This is what was happening for the past 10 years, but especially for the past five years. So now because of this Coronavirus, it's for the first time in decades that I have free time and I actually, I chose conscience I made a conscious choice of not now studying any sport, just taking a few weeks just actually breathe out. Yeah. To allow myself to be tired. And to say like, how can I still practice my violence and I have my son he plays violin, you know, we practice every day I teach him we do all kinds of things. But there is no this the deadline, I need to study this I need to do this assignment. It's kind of just for pleasure. So

Dana : 38:43

I see. You mentioned that you had a lot of people that believed in you when you're going through this and can you tell me about those?

Maria : 38:52

Well, now they all say you know what, let it out. Ah, well, I must confess you I never thought you would make. Because I think people just saw this determination wise back then. And so okay, well, if you're flying to the moon, you might as well you will check in and you realize that you but we won't tell you that you're crazy, you know. But now people say like, we have no idea how you pulled it through. And I also say, idea how it happened. And it takes time for my family and for my friends to I just there adjust my position in their system of coordinates. Mm hmm. Because I was married as a dancer. And now the merrier. The conductor and conductor normally has this very high social status, which I don't think that I have. Now I'm still the same person.

Angela : 39:53

And I see

Maria : 39:55

There are certain shifts which I see in my friendships. Yeah, very few people who we've sort of maintain the same level of interaction and but lots of people that have sort of shied away because of different areas of interest, you know, just as you said, you know, we are sorry that if we are going to ask some final questions, I think people kind of fear that they will not be interesting in discussion. And which is not true, I can speak it, I can speak about anything. But of course, I would love to have some people to share my passion with and from my own circle of friends, there are not many people who can speak in depth about music. And it's because there is simply not their area of expertise. So there are certain shifts and I have gone through a lot of lonely time during past one half years, but it's okay, it's fine. It's a good time to start. My life because I am living a huge chunk of my life behind. And I'm just talking out what the takeaways and what not to take into new life. And it's working pretty well. And at some point, I will have my new circle of friends or acquaintances, at least in the new and the new fields. And those very few good friends who I have had since years. They where they are and they will say,

Angela : 41:28

I think I think I really like how you said that. You didn't feel like it was like a mission or goal or anything. It was just something that brought me a little bit more happiness, then, you know, something that you've dedicated a lot of your time and your whole career already. Tell us about the first time you ever tried to come be a conductor, you know, like, was there like a first time before you even started? You know, you're training to really fully become a professional conductor. The first time you tried doing it, what was it like that somebody kind of teach you

Maria : 42:00

Because first time I ever stood in front of an orchestra was during the so called conducting course there are plenty of them and I was I was given an advice to attend a particular one which was welcoming not only an advanced students but also an absolute beginners. There was an absolutely marvelous teacher. He's actually a teacher of La Fille and chief conductor and we'll start with the domain if you're from San Francisco, you might have heard he's a maybe he is a, he's a if you check out Los Angeles Philharmonic, his name will pop up. He's a rock star in a musical world. And he's from Venezuela and his teacher you want to fish teachers was the teacher in that course. And I remember I came to this course and I had studied several scores foot tall, which we were supposed to study during the course. And you know, of course before that I would always look into the sport musical sports of valleys and I know the Valley Music I grew up with it. I know how it goes, I know how it develops. But when you watch some words by Beethoven, oh, by by Tchaikovsky by this masters, you mean it all and you don't know how to approach them? So I was I was studying this course as well as I could. You just telling myself Medea. How a nurse I wouldn't go there. You are just belly dancer pretending to be a musician. You just don't know anything. And then and one evening before my flight to the United Kingdom. I was in I was in Estonia during with my family. During the time, everyone was sitting, sweating, cold sweat and I told myself I'm not going anywhere. I had this fight. EPA said no, they're going to ridicule me out because I'm dancing and people will say, Come on what you're not even a proper musician, you don't know anything. And then I told myself Listen, you have already spent thousands for this course you have already a commendation you have the flights you have studied. So why to ship out now, you just go there and you can fail. At least you know that you fail. You have tried, but you will have tried. So you will know for sure that this is not something that you are mistaken that this is not what you want to do how you saw it. Because you know, you won't you will always think that neighbor's garden is greener until you actually go there and see that you know, what is happening there? Maybe it's a fake grass, you know, you don't know. So I boarded on the cost conscious I boarded the plane shaky and then I have right there and I saw that everyone will this amazing people there you don't like okay, let's start for explain this first chord like this and I see there you know people actually don't know many people don't know how to even start the first and August it's called an upbeat you know, like you're given up beat for them to, to and I was like okay fine let's start let's try it so I spent there two weeks and you know I didn't even have a baton you know that's on is this conductive or nothing with because um For me it was like a magic wand and I didn't think that I was good enough musician enough to actually allow myself to expend 699 to buy a conductor. So first I have to become a conductor and then I will get back home. Oh my god. So I, I was called to stand in front of this small orchestra in the course and they said okay, what do you want to go. There was my arms and the teacher said to me, "why don't you have a baton?" I can see that I deserve one. thought that I'm crazy. So he said, You know, I go to them, "why don't you go to the office and you can buy one baton for 12.99 pounds, you know, next time carries a baton, we will teach you to hold the baton." I have spent two weeks there, partially floating above the water, partially sinking, learning what I still had to learn. I mean, it's always it's forever learning but back then. I had my thoughts but what I knew for sure that this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. I knew I was enchanted. I was I was absolutely oblivious to any signs of hunger times whatever, you know, I just was my eyes like this looking and take every information from from every teacher, every student everything, and I returned, I returned from this course and I went straight to back to ballet because we were starting our season. And I remember my friends they came to me So how was it? How was it conductor, you know, for them. And I remember I looked at one of my friends who is like one of these very good friends and I said, I don't know how long it will take me but one thing I know for sure I'm on my way out. I'm on my way out from LA. Like, it was a point of no return. I just knew that. I'm, I'm starting my final listen. invalid. I mean, there were still I still that's another four years and there were still some of really good moments. But it's somehow that in the back of your head, you always know your heart. It always knows. Your head might think some thoughts but your heart somehow it always knows. So yes. But that was still doubting I was still doubting until I was giving my first ever professional show in an opera house where I had to go in front of an orchestra without having ever rehearse and orchestra. But my teacher who because I already was having a mentor who was working with me, he was a music director in the opera house. So he sort of took me under his wing and he was training me regularly and in a very hard way, like no thing of holding that on, propelling the way professional way. And he entrusted me with one show and it was you know, you go to eat, and but I had no chance to fail. So it was once in a lifetime opportunity and I decided to take this opportunity. It was a very risky opportunity, because you know, there are two and a half thousand spectators and dancers dancing on the stage and there are a few musicians sitting in the bit. It has to work out they have to play together and the way in a way, how it has to To be you know nothing that everything depends on you on conduct everything in the show. So but I went there and got our scared before the beginning of the moment for music started moment I started the music Actually, I knew that that was the fish in the water. And that was actually the moment when I knew that. Yes, this is it. There's nothing better for me in this life than that. And I knew there's no way there's still a long way to go and to develop and to learn you I will learn till I'm 80 or till 90 hopefully hundred three. But I knew that this is what was my volume.

Dana : 49:46

And this experience you had was it was it was it like two to three years ago?

Maria : 49:52

Yes. We are on 2019 2018 Two years ago exempting, hmm, April, end of April 27 of April 18

Dana : 50:07

Ah, okay, just two years ago and this is you said that this is the first time that you conducted on your own

Maria : 50:15

Oh, I have conducted I have conducted on my own most of conducting courses that I have done later this advanced conducting courses, they would always have a concert at the end. So you always get to go in front of a public and to conduct a short piece or a piece of a chunk of a symphony or a movement of a certain beak work, you know, but to go alone and conduct three actual that was two years ago. And yeah, so it was not different. I if I had not stand if I had if I had not stood in front of an orchestra. Conducting classes and in, in concerts, but nothing courses concerts, I would not accept to go in front of the orchestra and conduct the show. But I have I knew what it was like to stand in front of an orchestra already. And with some vigor works as well, but to just go and start and finish the show, I did not do that. It was two years ago.

Dana : 51:25

So just just to clarify, this is two years ago and it was a three act show. And you didn't really have a chance to rehearse you just went on.

Maria : 51:34

Yes, because there was another was another conductor who did the remaining shows and I was not supposed to get any shows that at all, my position in the in the Opera House was the cover conductor. So my job was to learn to be on standby I had to learn the musical material. And in case if a conductor has a good place, heart attack, or a diarrhea. After shower into the, into the or into the orchestra pit and finish the show, you know. But the channel I was told by the direction that chances that you go into the orchestra pit to conduct a show equals zero comma zero. So but because I tried not to lose my time and I would go to the rehearsal studios during rehearsals and run through so the ballet run through means when whole company comes together and that's the entire piece from beginning to the end, it's going to run through. And because conductors very experienced conductors, they very often don't come to this kind of rehearsals. They don't need it. But I was standing next to the pianist and I was conduct because I was I was training. So I would learn to look at the dancers and give them the exact tempo, the exact music they need. And I was learning to connect pieces of the show and to maintain the concentration during three hours. So I think the valet administration was very happy with how I was doing. So the valet intern, the valet director came to me directly and said, like, what do you think if we gave Maria one show and music? I said, Well, I don't know I have to ask her. So he called me and he said, Would you like to have to conduct one show in three weeks? And I said, I would be an idiot to say no, because he said, Well, I knew that you will answer like this. So I will give your guests to the valet administration. So this is how I was given show. So after I we have said goodbye on the phones really dirty. I started practicing. I started imagining that I have an office in front of me and I would run the valley at least once a day. for three weeks I have done 25 run throughs in my head. Wow. Not in my head. I was singing in my head, but I would conduct imagining You know, because different different instruments they sit in different places. So, sometimes you need to know to look at the person who needs to start playing here and there because sometimes people see it for a longer time periods of time not playing. So, you need to lead help to lead them in you have certain technique, you know, so And in order to do it, all right, you have to practice so, I knew that I have, I would not have any rehearsals. I would just go in front of the orchestra and play and it would have to work from the first time so I was practicing and luckily it went without a single mistake that show I conducted myself witness from memory. Well, I had learned so well, why this has sort of earned me trust trust because then the year after I still stayed as a cover conductor in the same Opera House in Germany in Stuttgart. And they already told me Okay, you will have this two shows of this one day hardships of production. So I get that, and then throws together. And someone heard about me in Canada. And that's how it started.

Dana : 55:10

Wow, that's amazing. That's really brave to conduct. I mean, just hearing your story, I think that was a really brave move on your end, but also you worked really, really hard for it.

Maria : 55:26

I mean, I'm sure every person has had at least once a situation when you know that. This is an offer like this or an opportunity like this will not come. Maybe I'm not ready for it yet. But there is no way I'm letting it go. Because it's once it's literally once in a lifetime. And you just know. And for me that offer of that show was a gateway into this profession, because I knew if I will fail or if I will not fail and there was no option for me to fail. It has to be, it has to be perfect. That's That's it. But I knew that it will instantly raise my credibility in the eyes of people who are in charge of hiring conductors on a different level. Because one thing is you say, Oh, I'm a ballerina, you know, if you say, you know, I have this position in Opera House, and I have conducted a show and it went well and the world is small. rumor spread, people can call you know, like, like the music director in Canada. He told me he's big before hiring you because he has hired me for this big contract without having ever seen me live. We had several job interviews on Skype, but he did not really see me in action and he gave me a lot of job right away and he told me when I arrived there for the first time I have checked every whisper about you when I put it and I have not heard a single bad word about you about your life. About your professionalism so so these kind of situations like the one I described before they were my way of gaining professional portfolio because I did not attend Music Academy. I have done certain courses certain I have certain like certificates, but I did not have undergraduate music. I'm actually going to start hopefully, next next scholastic year I will, I will start postgraduate music. So this will be fine. You know, I'm already having jobs. I'm earning my living with that, but I will have a formal formal training completed. I've done it in the reverse way. But yeah, I had a different idea had a different way of getting into profession. And that's why I had no don't chance granted to fail to make a mistake because this was my entry. During this this was my exam you know, this was why Music Academy exam state exam very unusual one but yeah, this is how it was

Dana : 58:11

That's a that's an amazing story thanks for sharing that.

Angela : 58:14

Yeah I think he's really highlighted like actually like the hard work that you put into and along the way right it's not that oh you were notified that you would be given this chance and then now you go and practice and learn you were already putting in all of the hard work and get yourself ready You know, preparing for the whatever chance that may come your way and then there was that one and then you though maybe were really scared but you know, like to set up and you know, step up and say, Yes, I am you know, I'm, I'm doing it. And I think it's just really a wonderful example to tell people that you know, whatever it is that you might want to do with your life maybe it sounds like it's impossible and mission impossible for everyone your family and you know, all of your friends as long as you're willing to put in the hard work and then you know, be not be afraid and not get kind of talked out of it by your own stuff. doubt, you can definitely still get to where you want to be. That's amazing.

Maria : 59:04

And plus, you know, it's as simple as that if you are lucky enough to find your calling, no effort is perceived as effort. Because we always talk about the sacrifices we have to make, you know, yeah, I had sacrifice had so much effort. But if you are lucky enough to find something, which is really what drives you. What makes you happy? Nothing is an effort. You don't care. You don't count hours. Yeah. It just is, you know, you just walk towards the light which and I wish to everyone in this world to find their calling because I think we have very often stuck with someone else's dreams. No one else is ambitious. Or, you know, I'm doing this course because they There's this lovely initiative from Ivy League universities, they offer free courses online, you know, so I'm taking this science of well being from Yale. And the lovely lady's professor there, she says, you know, we are so often mistaking things, we think that something will make us happy, but actually it doesn't. And there are ways of finding what makes you happy, but we never give ourselves time to actually dive into our inner self and actually hear this little ringing voice in there which is like, I don't want to be doing this. I don't want to be half certain and earn without a 300,000 bands. I want to be an artist and experience in a gallery or over the street and it will make me happy and get out Actually, last year when i when i when i was waiting for my contract in Canada to start last season I'm talking about 1819 because we work in seasons we don't work in astronomical year. So our season starts literally from September and goes roughly to end of June the beginning of July. So we work into just like scholastic follow years. And last season was my transition year, you know, I stopped with one carrier and then I had this time I had to wait seven months so, you know, I was having an unemployment in my country here. So I suddenly had become very poor, because my salary was about 50% higher than the money I wasn't allowed last year. There was no way of going shopping you know, minimal things of if my son needed new underwear, so shoes because you're growing. You know, there was no such thing as shopping there or shopping for food. And that was it rent and, and shopping for food. But you know, the funny thing was that not a single time I felt during last year that I was deprived of anything. Meanwhile, when I was in ballet because things were getting more complicated and more frustrating, and towards the end of my career, you know, I always felt this beat to console myself to go and buy something or to buy something for someone else. But always there was this need to go and distract yourself by spending money. And last year, I was poor. And I was telling everyone I said, I'm so happy. I don't feel the urge to move to the store because I wake up and I'm genuinely happy because I have music in my head. And I don't want anything but just to smile, you know? And this is how I realized again that it is very important to find what really makes you happy, because then as long as you have your basic needs covered. You don't need Much. Mm hmm. Because for the wonderful client is so much more fulfilling me?

Angela : 1:03:12

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I think and I think I want to say, we've definitely talked to people who said in the past that, you know, they realize that, you know, perhaps for them to, you know, get the experience or the training required for what they want to do next, it looks like they're have to cut out a lot more, maybe they need to not socialize, maybe they need to stop spending money on certain things. But then, when you really look at what's required, and what's essential to you what really makes you happy, then, actually, those are really nice sacrifices. And that's exactly what you're saying, right? You feel like, Oh, I don't need to have those things to be happy because, you know, maybe focusing on music actually makes me a lot more happier than getting a new dress or going out to get drinks with my friends. Yeah, I think that's exactly what you're saying. I think it's so nice that you mentioned that, you know, along the way, even though that the two very amazing careers If you've chosen so far, they both require really significant, just a lot of time, dedicated fully, you know, like you said physically and mentally and then also like your soul into it to be good at it. And then he also like mentioned that there's a few lucky encounters and then people that gave me the chances that helped you along the way. What do you think that, you know, how did you attract all of those looking encounters and the networks and the opportunities that kind of just showed up at a time that was absolutely necessary for you to pivot into your current career?

Maria : 1:04:34

You know, I very much believe in signs, not science, but science and China, very much believe. And I believe that the closer you are to your true self, the more universe helps you to get there because, you know, we all speak about the gold and you know, all mighty whatever you name it. But there's definitely something that rules it that keeps it all somehow going. And I come I come from the Orthodox Church, you know, and Orthodox Church is very strict, you know, they say, hell, if you're going to use you know, go, you should go and confess, you know, you have to have six weeks of not eating meat, bread and whatever it goes, starve yourself, you know. And then I went through all phases, all kinds of phases of believing, not believing, contemplating, questioning, doubting, and then at some point, I realized, you know, that and I also I like to meditate whenever I have time, and I have come to conclusion that this thing out there, their energy code, whatever it wants us, nothing more, nothing else, but just to be happy. But for that in order to be guided because it is You need to find what your purpose was to come. And I don't say I mind you I'm not trying to say that I'm the wise one to have found. I think I'm the lucky one. You have been granted a chance to find me really happy because and how I know that it makes me happy because I stopped hating myself I started accepting myself as I am if I make any mistakes, I don't blame myself like it was in Bali. You know, I just find myself for myself. But now, you know, I feel that okay, it's just a regular process of learning. Okay, mistake, okay, fine. I'll fix it. No problem. We'll move on. Nothing really stresses me out. Nothing makes me bitter and I'm sure I'm sure sure but in a good way. You I think you understand what I'm trying to say sir. And I think because I was lucky enough to find what makes me myself I think some gates opened and opportunities started pouring in. Because you know in order in order to learn to draw or to count you can give to your kids to draw this picture which goes by numbers you know, it's the same as they say with us who grownups you know if you need to, if you know where you want to get life universal Almighty whatever it is, will provide you with the little numbers which will be just you know, you're standing on one number but then what will be visible the next one will be some original so you will know the your next step you don't know where else it will lead. You will just you have will have your next landmark was called the landmark in English. So somehow you You will always be guided really knowing it without really feeling it just when you will have reached some of destination you will be able to turn back and so far like nothing was by chance it was by chance but not really not forget you have to trust your heart, you have to really trust your heart Even when you think that code but how will I provide you know, how will I provide when I when I meet new I have to stop I have if my son was born at the time, you know, how how, how will it provide but then you know, you have to just trust somehow it will happen. It will happen it will happen. And you need to make this step and then somehow things just work out for you. They were they were always will. I believe it blindly. Life wants nothing or universe wants nothing else for us. But our happiness nothing And the reason why we are not happy is because we are not we have not yet found ourselves and this also what I'm learning now in this field course you know, they say you know, we all think that if I will have a iPhone 12 1317 X, Y, Z p with cameras, five and then one at some point this whole backside will be the whole camera, you know, you can drive Tesla or even better a helicopter, you know, I'll be No, No you won't. Because it deep inside, you're not happy. Nothing will make you happy. If truth is rotten inside, you can put whatever you want on top. It will still be rotten.

Dana : 1:09:47

You have so many good quotes. I don't even

Angela : 1:09:52

I know I love it. I feel like there's a wonderful quote. I know. Yeah.

Dana : 1:09:58

Thank you. Um, so I want to know. So if somebody comes to you, and they tell you that I want to become a conductor, what would you tell them to do?

Angela : 1:10:11

I would say, I will honestly say what it takes. Because you cannot deny the earthly meaning. Yeah, it's a profession. I would say what it takes, I would say I would say the basic, basic list of requirements. And I would say go for it. And I would say, here's my number. You can reach out to me anytime. That's wonderful. That's what I would say.

Maria : 1:10:42

And in fact, there was one dancer who reached out to me and said, Oh, yeah, I would maybe be interested, you know. And I think it was very cute. Because I think he just thought that I went, I go in front of an orchestra, no waiver if I wave my hands but to wave our hands is very easy. As you know, because we can do whatever we want, looking nice, but it has to work. It has to have a meaning. So I said, Okay, well, if you said I would like to have a chat with you, I said, No problem, let's, let's chat. When When can we call each other? And he said, Well, so but just before we chat, I would like to know. So how long did you study? What do you need? What does one need and say, Well, what instrument Do you play to either play anything? Well, then you need to start playing an instrument, you know, it will take you a couple of years before you will be able to like at least a little bit understand because at most it will be piano because you need to read the orchestral score eventually. And then I gave a list of things, what one needs to learn lists of subjects, and as well when you will have kind of be done with them. Of course, you're also going to be learning then you can proceed. the easy part the way I said so but if you're starting from zero, it will take at least eight years. Mine. My luck was that back then I wasn't starting from zero. and and you know, he never responded to my message, he never got back to me and I think he just really saw that, you know, one can just let go and wave hands because this is what it looks from the side but I know that also many people think that that is the same you know, like gold is hard. It's hard. Yes. But I really hope that my my example will pave the way for some people who might have been doubting and but didn't have as much courage as I happen to be. There's one very famous American ballerina Cynthia Harvey. She's from a couple of generations before me and I have been happier lucky to study with her. And she almost always very supportive of my aspirations to become a conductor. And she say, when I started to really make it, she wrote to me said, you cannot imagine how happy I am for you. Because by succeeding you sort of fulfill my dream as well. She said, I was at the abt, everything, which is in Lincoln Center in New York City. And she said, you know, she was a principal dancer, and she said, I have, I was always dreaming to become a conductor. And I was having much better conditions to study than even here. Because conductors were actually almost insisting on training me. There's no problem. Just Just come and do it. You know? So much First thing we will teach you everything so but I didn't there. And I'm so happy that you have there and that you're making because it makes my dream come true through you. And I just hope that if there are some other people who might have doubt, doubted that they will also follow

Dana : 1:14:19

that's easy. I think that's what we're trying to do. Hopefully we can reach a lot of people

Maria : 1:14:24

I think but i think it's it's valid for any field.

Dana : 1:14:30

Where can people find you if they have questions for you?

Maria : 1:14:33

Oh, I have a website. Great. I have a link to I have I have an Instagram page all has my name inside so if you Google my name and family name, it will all pop up. I'm I'm quite I'm pretty connected. I I like when people write to me, I really like. I know. It feels so cute when people write to me so I normally respond very quickly.

Dana : 1:15:02

Thank you so much for your time today, it has been so inspirational to talk to you. And I really, really liked how passionate you are. And I think it's a real proof that you know, with passion and with hard work, you can get to where you want to go. And it's also really, really rare, I think, for me to, to just get to talk to somebody who is so maybe because you're coming from a ballet dancer background and you just work so many hours, but it's very rare for me to hear that some you know, people work from eight or six in the morning to 10pm and then they go back and do the same thing or even to 3am like you were saying so I think it's a really good example like it this really shows that you really have to work this hard to to go for the things you really want but it is really worth it right in the end.

Maria : 1:15:55

Yeah, but it is I must admit it is also partially my ballet upbringing as well. Well, we, our normal workload is, as I've learned is something impossible for other people. You know, I have very, I always tell people, I have the friends, she was a dancer, and she's dancing in Vienna. And she was one of these like very small scene dancers beautiful, like elves. And at some point, she said, You know, I'm done with Valley and I'm going to have to figure out what to do in life. And she figured she went to studying medicine. And you know, yeah. And then she said, at some point, that you know, how they have to first I am not very sure about exactly amount of years, but first they need to study I think general medicine, and then a certain amount of years, they need to choose their specification they need to choose and as much as I understand, one can choose one maximum two specifications because you know, it's an in depth Yeah. obvious for obvious reasons. I never was just telling you. Oh you know I I'm sitting here and I have this for both fields I'm interested in and I cannot make up my mind. She applied for all four, if I'm not mistaken she was accepted into all four and she graduated in all for each phone call louder in all my fields. She works now in Munich, in in Switzerland you know, but what I'm talking about. We are given this resilience. We are I guess what is asked from us during very first started studying from very early years. Now. The first thing but teacher will tell you when you will come to the dance class that you have for your for you know, you have this many when you do. And you want to like fly around without a dance without the kids. Well, welcome to the dance little ones. So from now on, I will be the only one talking in this class you will be doing you'll be paying attention. Attention. So what is being taught to you is to listen, to obey, but no correction. So I've every person given to any person in the whole, we have to know everything and then scan yourself to apply corrections from other people tighten immense focus and discipline immense, and I realize it. We don't think that it's anything special because it's normality in our field is but when I started coming out of that field, I realized that I have an enormous advantage. I think this is how I have pulled certain amount of studies through without actually attending an institution. Because I knew that I will be disciplined enough to study everything that's being taught my spoon fed to other people. Yeah. So you're when you are obliged to sit in course in person, you're much more likely to to complete the course. If you need to do it at home at night when you're tired or you want to binge watch friends, or y'all have blisters on your feet from the show or your whatever, or your child is vomiting at night. knew that they will do it you're not child vomiting, you go and study but it's about advantage. It's about advantage and I do acknowledge it I don't know. Hmm. So you know, if you ever hear someone who says my child wants to go to ballet but Valley is not a profession, she it to ballet school, I would definitely say yes. Because if she wants to be valid answer. And then later he will need to or he wants to dance and actually, eventually reconstruction dancer, not a problem. It's not a very big money, but it's a big question and discipline, and then there'll be no problem to switch into another field I people, absolutely everyone from my friends and from my own circle of friends who have chosen made a conscious career change and they have you know, I have dances, parent engineers, you know, doctors and this they have all succeeded at a very high level because because of the focus we have. Thank you so much. Have a good night and much for taking interest in my story I very much appreciate. Okay,

Dana : 1:20:46

Thank you for your time. Have a good day.

Maria : 1:20:49

Yes, have a good day. Bye bye.