Resources
✍︎✍︎✍︎
Today we have the honor of speaking with a fellow podcaster who is spreading amazing message on social media all over. Her name is Lauren Lee and if you haven't checked out her podcast, We Belong Here, you definitely need to. Aside from hosting a podcast, she is an English teacher turned coder who wants the world to know about the unconventional paths some people have taken to break into tech.
Lauren invited us to her podcast to talk about our experience because we share this same core value that she cares deeply about. For her, it is specifically the transition to tech because she went through a career change into tech not long ago. We love the different perspective she brings and hope you get inspired by her story.
✍︎✍︎✍︎
We have more interviews on our podcast! Head over there to check out more interesting stories.
Music was used with permission. Credit:
Happy by MBB https://soundcloud.com/mbbofficial
Creative Commons — Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported — CC BY-SA 3.0
Free Download / Stream: https://bit.ly/Happy-MBB
Music promoted by Audio Library https://youtu.be/g6swHZbWtRc
Resources
✍︎✍︎✍︎
Today we have the honor of speaking with a fellow podcaster who is spreading amazing message on social media all over. Her name is Lauren Lee and if you haven't checked out her podcast, We Belong Here, you definitely need to. Aside from hosting a podcast, she is an English teacher turned coder who wants the world to know about the unconventional paths some people have taken to break into tech.
Lauren invited us to her podcast to talk about our experience because we share this same core value that she cares deeply about. For her, it is specifically the transition to tech because she went through a career change into tech not long ago. We love the different perspective she brings and hope you get inspired by her story.
✍︎✍︎✍︎
We have more interviews on our podcast! Head over there to check out more interesting stories.
Music was used with permission. Credit:
Happy by MBB https://soundcloud.com/mbbofficial
Creative Commons — Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported — CC BY-SA 3.0
Free Download / Stream: https://bit.ly/Happy-MBB
Music promoted by Audio Library https://youtu.be/g6swHZbWtRc
Lauren: 0:00
I wanted to become a teacher because someone took a chance on me and really said, hold on, Lauren, you are valuable and your learning opportunity is just as important to someone else's. And I wanted to give back. And so now I think about someone who's learning to code. I empathize with that learner, and so that I hope, makes the content that I create accessible and something that hits home to all styles, modalities of learning and is coming from a kind lens.
Dana: 0:38
Good morning, everybody. Welcome back to the work in progress. Pack test. So today we're talking to Lauren, and Lauren is also on social media. She's everywhere, and we found out about her through her instagram account, Lolo Cody, which we will link in the description. And she switched to Tech. And she has a podcast, and she interviews people with a career change that goes into text. So we definitely have a lot of questions for her and for the people that she interviews with. So before we get started with the question Lauren, I was wondering if you could give us a little bit of introduction to yourself and we'll go from there.
Lauren: 1:56
Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me today and so excited. Be talking to you both. Eso yes. As he said, many Miss Lauren and I have transitioned from being a English teacher. I was in that profession of education for about 10 years. I might teaching credential in The Master is from a school in California, and I let's see in 2017 made the transition to learn to code and have been in the tech space ever since, and I I missed the bit of teaching and in A in a way. And so I found myself back into a space where I'm emerging the two loves, or the to pass, if you will, into one rule now, today, where I am a developer, education manager at a company called Vonage. And so that is essentially a role where I get to help other developers learn how to use products that my company creates. And I create content in tutorials and written version and also film and video format of how to become a developer and how to use tools to build cool apps. And so it's really beautiful melding of my past life and my current life. And, yes, as he said, I also host a podcast called We Belong Here, and it is all about highlighting stories of folks who are entering tack via unconventional paths.
Dana: 3:20
That's amazing. I really like the I just really like it when people chyna lie on, you know, obviously career changes and with emphasis into tech, because tech is such a big world right now, and there are so many opportunities and it's enabling a lot of people too, make a living on and make a really good living doing different things, cause obviously tech is not just coding. You could be in tech and you could be doing you know, many different rules in tech and like you're like you like yourself. You're kind of like a teacher for your company. You teach other but how to use the the software. So that's really amazing. I really like that that you're bringing in a different perspective,
Lauren: 4:03
And so the thing was, is that I was an individual contributor at Amazon and was incredible job. I landed it right after my boot camp, which was a superstar place, by the way. It should give them a shadow. It's called A to Developers Academy in Seattle, Washington, and it's a program for women and gender diverse. Balto learn to code for a full year, fully funded for free. So super cool place and resource for folks to learn about. So I will send you the link to include in the show notes and what not? But yeah, I was very, very lucky to attend a place like that and then and then landed an incredible role at Amazon, and I felt like I had just, like, need it. And it was, uh, you know, just I felt like I was in a musical moment, that the climax had happened where I like, landed the job and I did it. And yet I felt wildly unfulfilled, and I wasn't enjoying the work that I was doing. I didn't love being a cog in the machine. I felt as though I was, yes, learning tech. But I wasn't necessarily using the skills that I had had or that I had developed as a teacher and that maybe it felt it's always like throwing all of that stuff away and didn't know how to meld my two identities. As like this prior teacher with this new coder girl that I waas on and so like, ended up falling down. A lot of different paths were I then tried on a hat of being a technical product manager at Go Daddy for a little bit, thinking that OK, I could maybe help influence the pipeline in the the product roadmap, and maybe that would allow me to use those skills. But then I ended that missing coding, and so really wasn't a good match, either, and so likely then I That was probably around the time that I started public speaking and giving talks and conferences and discover that there's this whole industry of folks that air, you know, similarly extroverted love coding, but also want to talk to their friends about it and don't want to just be staring at a computer screen all day. And so that is the space called several or developer relations and realized really quickly that that was like my calling where I was gonna end up in what I And so I ended up hustling and I started my podcast and got to meet great people And yeah, through all of those connections that I was making through nose conferences and not working and then asking them to be on my podcast and then afterwards being like, Hey, can I get an interview of your company? So I found a great role where I got to, Yeah, merge both both places of interest for me. And so, yeah, you just got to keep searching for the right role within this large industry of tack because it's definitely out there for you.
Dana: 6:44
Why were you unhappy at Amazon?
Lauren: 6:54
It was not necessary. It was Well, okay, let's back up a bit because I'm coming from teaching, and I I love literature, and I love immersing myself into a good book. And I was teaching, you know, senior level English as well 6th grade English. So I was doing a full range of a kind of meta cognitive reflection within literature and really driving deep into dialogues and love to that role. But, you know, I was living in Seattle. That is an unsustainable role for their like salary. If we're gonna be totally candid on and to live there and to make it. And so I am being curious of what other types of things were potentially in my fingertips and cold like was not even on my radar. It was not even something, I I mean, I'm just not someone that was movie technically inclined. I didn't grow up building websites for myself had never touched each He and Taylor. Any of those started started things. And so I was on a school trip with my students and we were in Lusaka, Zambia. And my I was there just is the chaperone and my students were there, uh, setting up a sister kind of computer lab program to help students there learn html CSS basic JavaScript. And I'm sitting in the back of the classroom just as their teacher kind of like reading a book, not paying too much attention and listening to my students pure teach about this thing called coding. Like we That's what this is like yellow and get with the program. You can tell websites with this stuff and Langston okay, I want to try and feeling just so and over my head off over my things I didn't know. And I have felt so comfortable sitting in that space as I'm the teacher. You're the student and suddenly was totally flipped for me. And I got home from that trip after we were there for about a month. And so I had a month long boot camp, many boot camp with them, teaching me things, and the school year started up and my students signed me up for a code academy account. That's what it waas. And they started sending me assignments like Lauren work on this build that website that you were talking about, totally encouraging me. And so someone right, they were going be homework. I know it was the best, and I loved it. I was told I was like, We hold on, this is pretty awesome. And here I am teaching the art of a five paragraph essay about holding cough All the Catcher in the Rye, the same essays written by every single student of the class. And it's monotonous and boring us. I'm t I. Maybe antiquated age is not to say that literature and dialogue is not an important art form and something that doesn't need to be taught. But I suddenly felt, you know, flipped and excited by something so modern and technical, and that's when I kind of fell into it. And so I, luckily, you know, landed a spot at the Developers Academy, and I entered Amazon after that. And, you know, my team was really supportive. He wanted me there. They really encouraging of my growth. But I just felt like I was not, uh, contributing to anything greater. They on my team built a kindle. We built a list of the top 20 books read every week and which is really interesting because they have kindled data about readership versus like, The New York Times has a list of most sold books, but Kindle has access to, like, what are books that people actually read. And so I thought that was really fascinating at the gecko. Like, Oh, wow, we can really use this user data to tell something interesting. Well, turns out, the top seven books that are still being read today are Harry Potter books. And so this was really static. And there's nothing interesting about the data at all. And like the Bible was up one, too. But you can't really put that on the list. And it just got so flying really quickly. And I was just sitting there like you guys, what are we doing? And also, it was a really male dominated team that was really a new space for me as well. I wasn't necessarily comfortable in, uh in that setting almost at the beginning, because coming from teaching it submit majority is based. It's a woman field. Sorry to say that a problem teaching, which is a female dominant industry. Yeah, I mean, If anything, I would imagine it being at least a little more equally represented by both genders.
Lauren: 11:48
And so it was being in that kind of space. Just did not feel for me to be how to say I also fellas, though I wasn't contributing to the greatest bottom line. Or I wanted to find a place that I could be comfortable at the mission driven concept or something that was going to, I felt like I was contributing to the greater good in the world and cultivating a list or pure eating. A listing tweet that the tops bugs air Seven of them were Harry Potter. Don't get me wrong. I'm obsessed with that Siri's So it was fun to see that, but I was feeling as though I was just a participant in something very small participants in a very large thing. And I didn't see my girl fair, so I began searching for more.
Dana: 12:41
That makes sense, and that's very that's a legitimate feeling, right? You're just part a small part of this big team and working on something that you probably don't enjoy as much or or you just feel like, I I think I know I definitely can't relate to what you're saying when it comes to just feeling like you want to work out something that's more mission driven, that has more meaning. You know, things like that. And I think that's, it's a sign that you're looking for more challenge and I think that's a good sign. And I think a lot of people just kind of let that go. They kind of just Yeah, that's, you know, but that that's this is a job and it pays and they just kind of go back to the miserable life that they have been living in for a while. But I think some people do. You eventually think that well, this is not working out. And I do want to find something else that is more satisfying intellectually or, you know, career wise. And I think that's a few chose and I like that.
Lauren: 13:45
I think I I felt as though I I saw my team might do was shocked when I left there like one. People don't leave like I just want to keep learning and seeing what else is out there. I'm so new to the space and industry. And I need to know I need to understand what it looks like to be on a back end of the code base and I need to explore. And then I was curious to explore what it was like to live in a product side of things. And so it was really important to me, to important for me to see all all sides of the full stack, if you will, and also understand what it means to be a woman intact on and to prioritize my own happiness as well And to kind of not low myself to fall into a rut. You know, you spent so much of your day working, so might as well be having a great time doing it. And thats so possible attack. And that's an important message for me to drive home.
Dana: 14:43
Yes, and tell me about your experience in the boot camp.
Lauren: 14:49
Oh my goodness. I was I was a part a of a cohort of 48 other incredible individuals that were coming from wildly different and diverse walks of life and were thrown into a program that was in person 9 to 5 every single day. It was more work and more, uh, emotional stress, mental stress than I had ever experienced my entire life, even in my master's, whatever it like this was the most challenging, but obviously most rewarding because suddenly I was doing magic on my computer that I before had no clue that my brain was even possible of understanding and making sense up. And, you know, it was really important for me also to have switched that role and finally be a student again, and to really be learning and challenging my brain in such a dramatically different way. And so it was. It was a wonderful experience and lovely friends from it. And it was, It's been really fun now since we graduated. We have six months in the classroom and then five months, an internship, and we graduated in 2018 I believe, I think, Yeah, that sounds right. I've had a beautiful 15 and it's been so fun now, two years out, singing where folks in my program have have gone to and what they've got on to achieve in the space and Industry and I was about I was at Coke or eight And so their there's now 13 co hurry. I could be wrong, but there's just it's so neat to see every six months. A new batch of eighties is what we call ourselves, racing ourselves into the Seattle mostly text based but the nation as well. And it's been, I'm so proud of the program to be a part of it. And it's so need to to see folks that were in part of cohort zero, the 1st 1 on what they have achieved and gone on to be, you know, starting up their own tech companies in taking on massive leadership roles, etcetera. And I think that that's really important, too, because the more women we can get into those senior leadership roles, the more impact we could be making and making hiring decisions and being really thoughtful about that, which is 100% a mission of a cup of the organization as well.
Angela: 17:08
And I'm also reading a little bit more about the ADA developers economy that on your linked in profile, and it looks like it's very interesting, actually, a lot of the boot camps I am aware of where in the Bay Area are like three to maybe six months. And they're usually of the more shorter than the program that I'm seeing here and tell us about her decision to join this one. Did that change anything? Where did that make any? I guess, major the side on this one over some other book cams.
Lauren: 17:35
It's important to acknowledge what a privilege it was to attend and be able to sacrifice a salary for the six months that I required to attend that in person program. And so also because it was in person. That meant that a lot of attendees were moving from all over the country to attend and so up earning their life, not having a salary and then immersing themselves into this new industry in space and not having enough free time in their life to maintain friendships or any other relationship really outside of the program because it was so demanding. But I mean, obviously it wildly rewarding in that self is well and so with. There's a guaranteed internship afterwards, and so for me that felt like, Oh, wow, I'm gonna be in the space. I know myself is a learner, too. I don't do super well with online content. And so I need I felt that it was important for me toe. Have an instructor in his take notes and be accountable to that. But then also this piece of a NA opportunity to get my foot in the door after this 1st 6 months and to have a stipend that at that portion of it is paid, which is great on and the fact that it's tuition free to I mean, it was a massive sacrifice to walk away or to pursue something that is a year long. But all of the other contributors, her factors made it such an easy option for me. And so I was really lucky to get in on my first attempt at admission. And But I have lots of friends in the class that, you know, it was the 3rd 4th 5th time of applying because it's an incredible program. It's definitely worth it
Angela: 19:13
crowded, and I guess right after that it seemed like it didn't take you very long and you got were able to start working at Amazon, and it just sounds like a super amazing opportunity. What was the thing that I guess you know what What? Did you encounter any or anything? Were there any other mammal Memorable moments while you were, you know, doing your rounds of interviews with the other companies. I'm sure there were other amazing companies that you also talk to. And then
Lauren: 19:38
yeah, and I was lucky. Seattle is a great hub of tech, right? And so, yeah, eight of did a great job of exposing us to loops, which are technical interviews that you dio with different companies. So I looped with indeed and Nordstrom and Zillow. Redfin had Rover, and all of them were different. But it is such a great way an opportunity to interview the company's right back. Uh, there's a The massive probe into intact is to do a whiteboard interviews where you stand in front of a whiteboard in front of a room of people or one person. They ask you a question. You were to perform code on a white board, which is malarkey, because it's never a real world scenario in which you will do in your day to day life. And they also have some questions about computer science, which are fundamentals that are taught in a four year program that act as a gatekeeper for folks that attend boot camps because we'll have time to teach how to traverse a tree. Because we're teaching the fundamentals of off. It's You wouldn't help him to understand the Internet. And there's just There's so much that is valuable about curriculums and boot camps because it helps you prepare for the actual day to day job. But the gate keeping the Tech interview. And so it companies that are doing more progressive portfolio based or real world scenario interviews or a co challenge in which you help debug something that the team is actually facing Day in, day out. I find those companies to be the most interesting, and, you know, it is kind of the big dogs in tech that are still sticking with white board and are historically, you know, glued to that because there is data that says that those that there's a link there between success but there's the hiring practices need to change. Attack it. I was really lucky when I interviewed with my current company, which I love my role there. They asked to dio a rate of mock tutorial of using the content and how would I? I use their products there AP eyes to build something great. And so I got to build out many app and show them what that looks like. And it felt so reflective of what the actual role would be. That that even with competition me for me to see in the interview phase of things while I believe in what this company is trying to achieve and what their values are to and what they value in assessing a new teammate. And so I think those are opportunities that we can use to kind of lift the veil a bit on corporate practices
Angela: 22:20
That is so very true, I think, like he said, and probably a lot of the big they don't some check. It's still sticking to what they know kind of quote unquote best to find the best talent, although you know the times have changed and the market is different and all, obviously a talent pool is very different Allah days, but I think it really just takes, you know, more and more people from performing unconventional past. You know, like the people that you talk to, a kind of slowly changed the overall impression of, you know, what's the best way to find talent in tech,
Lauren: 22:50
right? And that was really exactly. And I believe that we will When When the opportunity was presented to me to apply for a promotion internally to take on a manager role. I obviously have some imposter syndrome happening and felt like, Oh, my gosh, I'm not ready for this. No bay. But then another voice is even stronger of Get that promotion, become a manager and make badass hiring decisions and get folks that you believe that onto your team in your company. And so that outweighed, obviously and felt that, you know, logic Persevere one out, if you will. And I'm really lucky now that I get to make those hiring decisions on. And I love being able to find other folks that attended boot camps and be like, Yeah, you get a job here and I'm gonna be your mentor, and we're gonna make this happen for you. So it feels really great to kind of know switch roles in that way. Uh, to be giving that.
Angela: 23:40
That's amazing. Yeah, I love that. I think really, it just takes more and more people to enter from unconventional path and then move up to the level where we can start to kind of have our voices heard at the management level. But it will take time, but we'll get there. Yeah, So then you mentioned that you were a technical product manager at Go Daddy. And I'm so excited. Curious to hear you talk a little more about that role. It looks like he did eventually lead there. But as long as I know, I think product manager is also a very popular will nowadays. A lot over trying to break into in. So tell us about the packet took from being like an engineer. And then you know that the sitting made you decide to become product manager. What triggered that?
Lauren: 24:20
Yeah. So I actually interviewed for a cell for engineering role. When I was finishing up at Go Daddy and I was finishing out my internship at Amazon, My manager there was like, Yeah, go test the waters elsewhere. It's find other opportunities and see if, like, this is where you want to stay on. And that was a great opportunity for me, because then a tip in interviewing is if you can get more than one offer. It then helps you negotiate and get more money, right? And so I literally just met with Go, Daddy so that I could get another offer and then go back to Amazon and get, you know, offer than I had for my team at that moment. But, uh, they said no to me on a software engineering role, and that really hurt. My ego felt bruised. I had an offer from Amazon, but they called me back there. Okay, we really liked you and actually think that this could be a cool opportunity We have is opening for this other role. Would you talk to the team? And then I ended up talking to this full product group afterwards, and they want me in their person ability and their what they had vision for for the company, go. Daddy is much smaller than Amazon. It felt like I could have the tangible impact on a road of what they were helping achieve. My dad was a faithful user of the product growing up. He always buying Joe me. And since it was something I was familiar with, but Go Daddy is a company that is known by the popular culture from the nineties and two thousands. They had these really sexist commercials during the Super Bowl that were like girls and bikinis wearing rate in race car themes. And it was just gross and, you know, patriarchal and misogynistic. And no, not my cup of tea, obviously. But I'm not an incredible woman who was the director of product, and she's like, Listen, that's the old company. We have a new leadership stuff we've swept house of that. You know, we totally take ownership. That that was a bad call. That was That was not who we are today. And we want to address that. Te learn from it kind of makes sense of how we can learn from our mistakes and be women forward company. And could rise from the ashes if you will. And I was really hurt by what product can do with that and how to impact change into be a part of that journey and narrative. And so that felt really interesting to me. And they also saw him. He has a whole person to, whereas it felt quite often Amazon that I was there. Diversity hire. I was the check box on the team, right? And and whereas go Daddy was we want you, Lauren the human, the person who was a teacher who sees things from these imprint. Interesting angles. And so that wasn't easy sell for me. I think they have to offer me less money than Amazon. It was that, you know, it wasn't the technical path that I was set up to pursue after ADA, but they they came from this, like, holistic perspective and that that works for me. And that's not the path for everyone. But I really did enjoy it for the time that I was there because, you know, I suddenly was learning about Well, first of all, I didn't know what quarters were in the end, your concept, like they were about to enter Q two and I sat anything like, What are you talking about? I have no inside. Certainly the relationship between Protestant engineering was so unknown to me. And I mean, of course, that Amazon I had product managers on the team, So I had observed that, but and it was a total new space on the fact that they were willing to take a risk on me for that. I thought wow, like I really want to see that through. But yeah, I mean, I got in that role. I was, you know, influencing the roadmap and understanding the shape that of the large and in shaping essentially large bids business objectives on getting the relationship between product marketing, sales design, you know, putting it all into one engineering goal. And I love the engineer on that team, too. So is there really? It was fascinating. I learned a lot during
Angela: 28:27
that time. That's so cool. I think a lot of times people are very interested in, like, product management rules because, like I said, you know, it's kind of really that role that kind of intersex between, like business and engineering and also a little bit of design and your influence, what you present or I guess, what you offer your users. And it really is just, you know, like a really influential position. And a lot of people, like so, you know, work on like things that, you know product managers do. But, you know, it seems like just kind of fell into your lap, and I think it's so amazing. And I'm sure you had a great time there and what triggered. Yeah, I guess you know the thoughts that you know, Levi move onto a different role that sounds to be very different. A developer educator
Lauren: 29:09
U S. Oh. So that was when I entered. Go, Daddy. I knew that Deverell was the path that I wanted to pursue, but I thought it'd be interesting to essentially internally evangelized, which is a term that sounds almost biblical. But it's essentially I was evangelizing within the company, a product that my engineering team was using. So I was getting an opportunity to practice Deverell, if you will, in that role. And so I used that role as a catalyst to find eventually an opportunity within this industry that I was pursuing because I at that time had started giving talks at larger conferences and felt, Oh, wow, this is a space for me. I feel a so I like participating in community had, like giving back to other developers. I like being a woman in the space and demonstrating that we have a space here on that. We can carve it out for ourselves and that there's room enough for all of us at the top. And so all of those things felt really important to me. And so, uh, luckily, go Daddy was really supportive of me continuing to pursue those teeth talk or those speaking opportunities. And that was eventually through those those avenues is when I found a company that I'm currently at. And so I, you know, networks and build build up my essentially my circle of friends within the tech space and asked everyone that was in that devil's industry, you know? Who are you hiring? Are you? Do you need another developer, advocator, developer, evangelist on the team on. So just trying to get as many interviews on opportunities as I could toe break myself into it.
Angela: 30:52
Cool. And can you tell me a little more about what is the bed Well commission And that I was different then because I've heard developer evangelist and I can't get girls. I heard some other terms that are similar, but I'm not that there's a difference.
Lauren: 31:06
So Dev Rel is the umbrella. And then developer, evangelist and developer advocates fall under that as well. And my role, which is newer one in the spaces while developer, educator also with exist within the umbrella on. So essentially, it's all about building relationships within a developer community. It's about acting as a liaison between the communities that you're passionate about. Eso se. For example, at that moment when I was interviewing, I was really attending a lot of ruby conferences and I was volunteering with Chick Tech. And so I had particular groups that I felt really, really passionate about. And then also this role is being an advocate for your company and within those communities, and so kind of acting as a bridge between those two. So helping those communities know about the company that you work for, and then also making sure that the company knows about the communities that you care about and being a voice for them and saying, Hey, the user feedback on this or well, that really doesn't work for the developers that I know and so informing roadmap and also vision and being a voice on both sides of it evangelism. It's cool that you're usually sharing out about your company to pleases and speaking about it and why it's a good solution for, you know, developers out there and advocate is someone who says, Hey, actually, the problem you have may not be my company that I wanted up for you and find the best solution. And so let's find out together. So that's that's really what Deverell is itself, you know, we right, I personally write a lot of words, and but I'm building lots of code and building APs all the time. It's ploys kind of learning new things on the text based are keeping my ear to the ground within the communities that I care about understanding what they curious about. What are they excited about? And so then say who? I should be learning about that myself right now and building tutorial with our product using that language, for example. But then also, you know, participating in conferences and attending them, and we sometimes work the booth, which means were at a conference telling people about our products but also speaking at them. But then just, you know, listening and, uh, hearing what people are curious about and what problems they have their code and then hopefully offering opportunities for us to make their lives a little bit easier with the products that we make.
Angela: 33:29
Wow, that sounds amazing. Tells about a typical day. What happens? The first go into work. Oh, so I
Lauren: 33:36
work from home because my team is globally distributed. So when I'm going to work, it's mean taking I switch gears by taking my dog for a walk. So that's like you to start my day. But, you know, way. It's a great team. Most bunch, my team is in the UK, and so they've been online for hours already. By the time that I wake up and so catching up on slack and understanding what we're talking about, what, what products? We need to be paying attention, to or creating content for, uh, we are trying to break into the video space right now. And so I have been delving into Twitch, and I've been live streaming. I have a Siri's that I've started recently called. Lauren learns things and and being wildly vulnerable and work with folks on my Deverell team, and they're the experts and they walk me through something that they're working on with for products, and I usually have no clue what we're talking about, but it's been great because I've learned a little bit about PHP. A couple weeks ago, we built a couple pipin APS, and so those are things that I had never really worked in with before. And it's such a fun opportunity to be demonstrating that vulnerability online alive for folks to watch. But yeah, has a bus, one portion of it. But it's also, uh, brainstorming. What are cool ways that we can be building either APs or use cases with other companies? You know? How could we maybe integrate with, uh, Amazon or Microsoft and use some of their products in a tutorial so that we can demonstrate other use cases for customers that are to build something in collaboration with something else that they have? And so searching for those opportunities and then always kind of making sense of what are ways that we can make it accessible to folks that are attending a boot camp? Could we give a tutorial to them? Could we do a webinar so looking for ways to make sure that we're accessible for all styles of learners as well?
Dana: 35:36
So earlier, you mentioned that you wanted to be the person doing the hiring in in the tech roles and that makes me wonder. What are this like? What? What are some things you're trying to change with the hiring intact? Yeah,
Lauren: 35:51
so that's a good question. I I felt passionate about being able to be a part of the conversation that says, Well, what about this person on and to not overlook an applicant? Because maybe they don't have a traditional CS degree or they their resume doesn't look as I suppose, folks who have been in the industry for a very long time expected to. So to be an advocate for that, because I had incredible mentors along the way during my boot camp experience, I felt important to then get back and be that person into because I had to see that the table be the person that brought up the the names of folks that maybe we're getting skipped over on pushing, pushing the conversation to say, Well, what about them? Why can't we hire them? And so that felt were important to me?
Dana: 36:53
That sounds amazing. I think that's essential for to help, to help bring not just diversity, but, you know, to ask people to not pay so much attention on what's on the resume or CV, but actually look to their other strengths. That's it's not in me immediately obvious at the hiring process.
Dana: 37:15
Yeah, I think it's important toe value as a team. Cognitive diversity as well. And so you know, there are so many engineering teams that try to Sakhalin. I'm sorry. Try to tackle problems in the exact same way. And so when you have someone who has, for example, that an English teacher for the past 10 years of her life come to the brainstorm to solve a particular coding problem, she's most likely going to tackle it in a very different approach. And so there's opportunities there. Maybe it's not the best way, but hopefully it will be expanding the way that we see something in almost opening up an opportunity for a new lens. And I think companies benefit from that. And so I'm often the voice in the room that will say, Okay, can we see it from a different approach? And I think that we really value our there's a benefit in in having those new new eyes to it. But also we have to feel we have to get folks in that space that feel comfortable speaking up to because it's it's it's terrifying. Sometimes do. There's impossible center that to be the only one that's different. So the more we can make it be a a normal things to challenge. I think that it's the better. And Deverell itself is a really diverse space, and there are tons of people that have been in different roles and then have found themselves into this new place where their teachers, but also community members and maintainers of open source projects, etcetera. And I love that particular world that I'm in because it's made up of a bunch of folks that love having wild, wonky conversations but also don't need to sit in from the computer all today because they want to go have a beer and karaoke e at the end of the night. And so it's really just lovely space of incredible humans that value all sorts of things beyond just you know what, I don't know, like the tech or processor you're using. I think that that much more dimensional than that. I
Angela: 39:27
like how you mentioned, like bringing you know, like it's kind of like adding a new lens because even even though, you know, you might think that. Okay, maybe duffer all your educating your users how to use your product in your users engineers. But I think slowly but surely you know, one where engineers are not engineers, that you think that, you know, have, like, for your CS degree and one, right. So there, more engineers that you know, pivoted from some other very different careers that they did for, like, 5 10 years before they enter the showroom of and you know, like so like a different way of kind of explaining and pushing the problem and pressure, pushing the solution from a different angle. Like you said, you know, perhaps an English teachers solution will probably speak a little more so some of the engineers that have certain similar background But somebody that you know only has, like, a very like a linear, a technical path from tested for your degree.
Lauren: 40:18
Yeah, and I think I'm able to think about the user a lot better in a different way. I shouldn't say better, but I'm able to understand the user in a very, uh, innovative first lessons. I think because it's I'm comfortable remembering being the person that was not take technologically savvy because I wasn't three years ago, and it was something that I was. My 17 year old students were helping me make my basic HTML website. So I think it's not hard for me to remember that journey because it was so and it what? It's a part of my narrative to that. I don't mind being confused about something. I like asking questions, and I don't feel stupid for not understanding something. It means that someone either hasn't explained correctly, you know, in the best way. Uh oh, they're just making assumptions. And I don't think it's a bad thing to ask. Ask more questions about things. So I feel comfortable in that world.
Dana: 41:16
In what ways has your, you know, your your previous career being a teacher? How has that helped you do so well in your current position.
Lauren: 41:27
Yeah, definitely. I think now I'm able to understand that we learn in wildly different ways. I myself enter teaching because as a child, I was dyslexic and I did not learn to read until I was in about third or fourth grade and So I spent years of my life not knowing how to do something that everyone else understood very well. And I was lucky that finally, after years of faking reading someone in the classroom, a teacher I done, if I didn't realize that girl is not really reading right now like she is full on. She's learned coping mechanisms to skate by and said, You know, Father the cracks and was able to identify and really help me, uh, learn to Tuggle reading and writing in in the way that works for Mia. And so I wanted to become a teacher because someone took a chance on me and really said, Hold on, Lauren, you're valuable on your learning opportunities, Justus, important to someone else's. And I wanted to get back, and that has never left me. And so now I think about someone who's learning to code and is feeling frustrated because the this debugging process is wildly confusing at the beginning, and it's hard to pinpoint where, exactly if something is going wrong when you don't fully understand all parts of the of something within within your code. And so I I empathize with that learner and so that I hope makes the content that I create accessible and something that hits home to all styles, modalities of learning and is coming from a kind lens, hopefully and so on space. That is saying, I want you to be in this basin In this industry there is You belong here and I want to help you get there and achieve your goals and dreams. And so, you know, creating content in creating tutorials and applications that are good for beginners. But then also interviewing folks on my podcasts that have made the transition successfully, making sure that their stories are heard and that advice is shared with the community so that other people that are curious to enter themselves feel is, though they're walking into a space that wants them there and is excited and will be mentors for them and provide opportunity for them and help them make sense of how to change that narrative, if you will, of the what things we brought, what lessons that we learned in our prior roles and skills that we developed. We need to help present to our new companies those things that's assets and not detriments, but things that they're benefiting from. And so that's kind of the goal, that of the podcast that I have that I tried to achieve. But then, in my world of developer education, it's making sure that they feel comfortable in the space is well.
Dana: 44:39
And what are some ways that you think are very effective at helping people feel more confident about speaking
Lauren: 44:47
up, being open to question in in code. What we often do is write a piece that but that solves the particular problem we're trying to achieve on. Then it goes up for code review. And so then the whole team goes through into reviews it and asks questions, which actually can be quite terrifying, right, Because now suddenly everyone, it's bringing how you decided to solve something, looking for opportunities to ask questions or challenge it. But if we do it and if we develop relationships with one another in a positive way that everyone feels like a team, it could be a much better opportunity to give feedback to each other, Then just to jump in to a stranger and say, Why did you do it this way? Eso I really think teamwork on it on a coding team in particular is really important because it's not something that can be skipped. And I think that you'll feel more comfortable, writing creative, innovative code or asking questions on the team if you feel like you're in a safe environment in that regard and then I think also, the more interviews you can go on, the better and when you're early in the space, because it comes very, but it becomes very formulaic in that you have to answer particular question. You have to share a little bit about yourself. And then you have to explain how you solved a couple few different problems in your coding career and you get better. It kind of developing that narrative and bringing your full self to the table. But you have to do. It's a practice in the muscle you have build or have to build and flax. So I think it's the best. Never seen, no to an opportunity. Always have the conversation, go to the interview, asked those questions. And even if you're not curious to look for the opportunity at that moment, I think it's a good way to develop those skills.
Angela: 46:41
Yeah, I just wanted to ask for. And actually, because, you know, we talked about Death Row. We talked about the film for Angela Evangelist, And you know, all of these roles that are I feel like, kind of new and are starting to become, you know, more and more common. And I'm sure a lot of people are quite not quite sure, you know what exactly are you know? Is there a particular background? Is there a particular skill set that you're looking for now that you are in a management position where you're hiring these developer educators?
Lauren: 47:08
Yeah, that's a good question. Well, so for me, you know, it's important to remember that this role is wildly technical. It's we're constantly building new applications and new languages on trying to build on our skills and to stay up with what is new in the text based are interesting to the communities that we care about. So there is this a bill. We're looking for someone that is part of a community to that wants to get back to some group that they feel are important in this space and then have the ability that our technical enough to then write something for them, but then have the interpersonal skills to explain that right? And to make it acceptable to that, because I'm sure a lot of people can relate to. You know, sometimes there's a math professor in college who is a brilliant mathematician but has never taken a teaching class once in their life and so far doesn't work. It would translate well. And so it's this magical human that we're always looking for, that can empathize with their their users and their community of their friends, and then also not make it feel like a sales pitch and say, I come check out the cool tech I made for you That is my only difficult thing. But that is also just means. We're looking for good people, and I think that that is really what matters to me most. So no, I looked to see if someone has a four year degree. It's never gonna I care about this story that someone has their passion for making the learning process a better one and developing their skills beyond tech but also within it. So it's it's a passion for a lot of different things to
Angela: 48:54
nice, Amazing it doesn't really sound like another, you know, very multifaceted role. Kind of like being a product manager. Well, you probably want to be a little more technical than your average product manager, and, you know, having the ability to code. And then, obviously, you know, maybe do code reviews and things like that. So, like over skipping like having an engineering team, that kind of concept, curiously worth, is your team fall within the whole engineering work product structure?
Lauren: 49:20
Yeah, so we've got restructured last year into product, and I love product because we have impact on the road map. As he said, you know, product is to define exactly what this one particular feature or uh, for us, it's the an A p I what it does, who it helps, what it is. Cheese and being there. We are the people that have our ears to the ground with the developer community. So we get to be the advocates for them and say, Hold on. This is what folks really need and want and really tangibly be a part of that product, uh, future and what it becomes an evolution of its of its life cycle cycle, so that is really a lot of being in the Prague in product now that in being on exact teams with product managers and seeing how they are achieving things, is it's really thing for some of the developers, folks who transitioned into this rule from strictly developed being developers and having that engineering focused role I think is really interested and fascinated over them to now see problem. It's such a close lens and say, like, Oh, how annoying you, you know? And so it's really cool to see all of these different, uh, lots of life, kind of merging into this one space and and helping to find you know what the company achieves. Two, Which is really cool. And
Angela: 50:43
it is. What's your advice on? You know, for those people that are currently dropped, searching and looking for the next opportunities. What's your advice on really looking for companies or organizations? Or, you know, just hiring Manager said, actually care about you behind. You know that piece of paper that resume your online application because a lot of the times you know the process, you go through it unless you have some kind of network or personal connection, you know if you're just flying the applying online, it's kind of hard for that person to come through, you know, just, you know, for the manager to see. But then it's also kind of hardboard, I guess applicants to know that, you know, this is a company that actually truly cares. But he was a person is supposed to let me look at what's on your paper, you know? How do you What's your advice on finding that dream ideal completely Entire manager
Lauren: 51:31
Tough thing, and I'll push back on it. Find the people that the companies get those referrals because then there's a person in the space that you can ask those questions to. What is your day in? Day out, like, What's your relationship like with your manager? What's your relationship like with your skip manager? And then you have That's just really truthful. Hopefully, honesty answers. And then there's a year that has, you know, someone hasn't year at the manager. It's a level and says, Hey, please take a look at so and so's application. And so it It's a symbiotic relationship in that regard when it comes to referrals, because then I was really heavy on the meet up circuit, if you will. While I was job, I mean, I was lucky and fortunate to be living in a city that, you know, there was a different meet up every night of the week in Seattle that I could go to and mind you. This is pre Cove in times and so there are online meet ups. It's still one can get involved in. And so there are opportunities still to be building your relationships and network with folks. Ask for people to be your mentor and to help you in this journey. You know, there. It's a responsibility of a lot of us who have now been in the space to give back, I think, and so people want to be mentors for you. You just asked specifically what you need from them. I recently gave a talk about nail your 30-second elevator pitch. And I think there's always an important thing at the end of an interaction with someone to name what you need from them. And even if it's just a business corridor here, we review my resume for me. Or can I interview with your company? You know, names that you need. And there's then that moment where it puts it back on them and think, Oh, yeah, I love to help you out with this and it was a positive interaction. I want to make sure that you do well to And so I think in our human nature to want to, you know, help each other out in that regard. So I think Bill, that network and this is this is really wildly different times right now, and interviews are all happening remotely. And But I still do you think that there is wings to build up that circle of folks of and ask those questions of people that seem like they love their jobs. You know, those got the those network of people that you know that do love it because there's a ton of roles intact that are super pouring. So no, them too, because you're not what to. But yeah, I think it's important to name what you want in your community of people. So then you also haven't at, uh people holding you accountable to tow what you have named to the universe. Avoid going to achieve.
Angela: 54:07
That's wonderful. Thank you. for sharing that little resource with us, and we'll definitely get the link from you and then include that in our show notes so people can go to that.
Dana: 54:15
So I'm interested to find out, what do you think you could do in the future? Cause you were a teacher before, and then you went into tech, used it the coding boot camp. And you are now in Deverell. And it seems like there is a world of possibilities out there. And you I'm guessing that you don't necessarily have to stick to, like, a traditional career path. You could probably create something on your own sound. Sounds like you're a very creative and resourceful person. End is really eager. Are not afraid to learn new things. So I'm real interested, to find out what you think you could do. You know what you think that look could look like for you in the next two or even five years?
Lauren: 54:57
Yeah, that's a great question. I I just I'm about to hit my year mark at my company that I'm at which, you know, is kind of hopping between tech roles for a bit. And so it feels fun to finally find a place that I feel like I can continue learning and challenge myself and taking on the video space, for example, with something I had no experience in. And now I'm a stream on twitch and YouTube, and I feel so excited about adding that title to my little world that I've created for myself. But I love that I'm in a role where I get to just kind of identify something new that I'm curious about, and then the team says, Yeah, go do it That sounds awesome. And so they're super supportive, for example, of my podcast. But for that in particular, and we belong here community, I think it's important just to continue cultivating a sense of collaborative community that values the folks that are making these transitions into tack the unconventional paths and making sure that they feel as though they have a space and that they belong. And so whatever I can do to continue fostering that in positive environment, that's what I want to pursue, and so whatever role that looks like, it's something that I am key into to you know really direct myself towards in the next few years of my tech career. Yeah. I mean, it feels wild to think back to 2017 and having a stack of 100 essays to grade on the You know, exactly the same time ago, I was bogged down with Shakespeare soliloquies, analysis, essays to grade and just feeling so lost and confused and feels. Now. I feel so excited by the opportunities ahead of me because as people said before Angela, you said, You know, tech, there's so much to explore and to pursue it. And so I think I love not knowing almost and feeling excited by what could be in this space is terrifying, of course, but riveting and thrilling. And I feel stimulated all the time mentally and that I wasn't getting before, and I just love feeling confused. I literally feel confused all the time when people are trying to explain to me a new code base like I've never I do not know what your e what? Ask your question right now, but what a humbling, an incredible feeling that really is. And everyone t up our humanity to. So I think just feeling open to what that could turn into and and what? What we can do to help continue building communities is what I'm most excited about.
Dana: 57:36
Thank you so much. So you previously mentioned that you're now on Twitter and you're doing all kinds of streaming, and we need to link that.
Dana: 57:45
So where could people find you, you got a science is gonna spirited tick talking about who this point help for me, which I need to mortified. But everywhere I'm online as lolocoding. But the twitch in particular is for my company. And so that is Vonage. So we're the developers at Vonage that we're streaming about. And so we're just talking about all different products that we can in cool things that we can do with our products. And I will send you a link for sure.
Angela: 58:18
Thank you. Would love to check that out.
Lauren: 58:21
Yeah, one because it I'm trying to make it accessible for folks that are interested in learning in the beginning stages of their career. And so asking silly what someone quote unquote would say identifies a dumb question. But then at least I'm asking it so someone else doesn't have to. And then it's a safe space. Hopefully is my goal.
Dana: 58:42
Great. Well, Lauren, think is much for your time. It's been a lovely conversation. Thank you for sharing your perspective. And I really, really loved your energy and how excited you are, to entre versus Unknown World and not be faced by it. I really admire that. And that's something that we like we want to share with our listeners. So thank you so much for bringing that in. Thank you. Of course. Thanks for having me. Thank you. We'll be in touch.